Standard & Poor's Downgrades U.S. Debt Rating

[Demosthenes11]

guartz is the worst type of troll because he believes not in conceivably believable things, but things that are so...no...that you can't help but reply.

damn u!

[guartz]

Thanks lol

[6souls]

[Dimmauk]

Daily show's take on the downgrade and the stock market today was amazing tonight.

[*Shinzon*]

OBJECTIVIZING US LOOOOOOL.

[Plow]

“There is no social entity with a good that undergoes some sacrifice for its own good. There are only individual people, different individual people, with their own individual lives. Using one of these people for the benefit of others, uses him and benefits the others. Nothing more.” - Robert Nozick

Nozick just really annihilates that moral argument of yours, Kuya. Now, let me explain the invisible hand to you, this explanation requires some participation. Go outside, take a look at all those people bustling about, take a look at all those buildings and imagine all the materials and talent that was required to put all that together. Now image all the resources it takes to keep all of this ticking, the constant delivery of supplies and food stuffs, clothes and parts. It's really like a force of nature isn't it? I mean, all of this and much much more, it all stems from some guy somewhere who was looking to make a few bucks.
.

What's crazy is like... there is no rational or logical thought process to lead to that conclusion. Even shit like trickle down has some kind of idea that you could think of how to make things work and go "well, maybe if we make sure the big spenders are able to spend blah blah blah."

What he just said is like... someone sat down and said to himself "ok, what can I think of to say to make it sound like people working together is bad?"

[guartz]

What's crazy is like... there is no rational or logical thought process to lead to that conclusion.

It's a huge problem, and a lot of these scholars admit to it. It's that way because it's counter intuitive, so it makes it seem like it's wrong. However there are a lot of truths that are counter intuitive. Earth is round while it looks flat, for example.

[Kuya]

“There is no social entity with a good that undergoes some sacrifice for its own good. There are only individual people, different individual people, with their own individual lives. Using one of these people for the benefit of others, uses him and benefits the others. Nothing more.” - Robert Nozick

Nozick just really annihilates that moral argument of yours, Kuya. Now, let me explain the invisible hand to you, this explanation requires some participation. Go outside, take a look at all those people bustling about, take a look at all those buildings and imagine all the materials and talent that was required to put all that together. Now image all the resources it takes to keep all of this ticking, the constant delivery of supplies and food stuffs, clothes and parts. It's really like a force of nature isn't it? I mean, all of this and much much more, it all stems from some guy somewhere who was looking to make a few bucks.
.

I don't really understand what that Robert Nozick quote means, but let me give you something different:

How could a thinker as brilliant as Nozick stay a party to this? The answer
is: He didn't. "The libertarian position I once propounded," Nozick wrote in an
essay published in the late '80s, "now seems to me seriously inadequate." In
Anarchy democracy was nowhere to be found; Nozick now believed that
democratic institutions "express and symbolize … our equal human dignity, our
autonomy and powers of self-direction." In Anarchy, the best
government was the least government, a value-neutral enforcer of contracts;
now, Nozick concluded, "There are some things we choose to do together through
government in solemn marking of our human solidarity, served by the fact that
we do them together in this official fashion ..."

As for the invisible hand, i understand the mathematic argument that social interactions tend to some form equilibrium, even though humans still enforce some sort of order to these interactions. But that somewhat realistic understanding of economics is not the same as the undying belief that the market will fix all problems, that's simply dogmatism. And similarly, i want you to look outside, at all these buildings and people. Do you know what you don't see? The groups of people making sure that buildings aren't created all over the place leading to horribly designed cities. The security necessary to to protect these buildings and people, and to protect the resources used to build things. The regulations necessary to make sure those skills aren't abused, and the regulations necessary to make sure brilliant ideas aren't stolen.

Nozick came to realize the absurdity of his beliefs, maybe one day so will you.

Btw, thanks for reminding me i need to make a thread about libertarianism.

[Tyche]

The Buffett bump

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/op...&smid=fb-share

OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.
While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.
These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.
Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.
If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.
To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.
Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.
The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)
I know well many of the mega-rich and, by and large, they are very decent people. They love America and appreciate the opportunity this country has given them. Many have joined the Giving Pledge, promising to give most of their wealth to philanthropy. Most wouldn’t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering.
Twelve members of Congress will soon take on the crucial job of rearranging our country’s finances. They’ve been instructed to devise a plan that reduces the 10-year deficit by at least $1.5 trillion. It’s vital, however, that they achieve far more than that. Americans are rapidly losing faith in the ability of Congress to deal with our country’s fiscal problems. Only action that is immediate, real and very substantial will prevent that doubt from morphing into hopelessness. That feeling can create its own reality.
Job one for the 12 is to pare down some future promises that even a rich America can’t fulfill. Big money must be saved here. The 12 should then turn to the issue of revenues. I would leave rates for 99.7 percent of taxpayers unchanged and continue the current 2-percentage-point reduction in the employee contribution to the payroll tax. This cut helps the poor and the middle class, who need every break they can get.
But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate.
My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice.
Warren E. Buffett is the chairman and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway.

[Headspace]

The Spin

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/08/15/...ax-hike-pleas/

[Zoolander]

sauce?

and lol, Heritage Foundation also leaves out shit like the fact still remains he only paid 17% on taxable income, they rebuke one tiny part of his argument and call the entire thing void (unless they're claiming he lied about how much of his income he paid in taxes).

and love the line "the top 10% already pay 69% of the income taxes". fucking A, the top 10% also has what, 70% or so of wealth. TOTALLY UNFAIR

[Cantih]

and love the line "the top 10% already pay 69% of the income taxes". fucking A, the top 10% also has what, 70% or so of wealth. TOTALLY UNFAIR

I'd trust it as far as I'd trust heritage.org (which is to say, not at all) because the source links lead to a site that triggers my "oh shit, timecube" sensors, but hell, let's say reality lies between your numbers and theirs until we get something solid.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/1520...ry%27s_wealth/

[Quixotic]

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11845

[Plow]

I cannot put into words how much it sucks that he won't run for anything.

[archibaldcrane]

Hey Solanis, still bearish? Are we going for 10,000 or 13,000 first? (DJIA)

[Ksandra]

The Spin

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/08/15/...ax-hike-pleas/

Mitchell also points out that Buffett “completely ignores the impact of the death tax, which results in the federal government seizing 45 percent of his assets,” and “mischaracterizes the impact of the Social Security payroll tax, which is dedicated for a specific purpose.”

It's ok guys, we just need to kill all the rich people.

[Kuya]

Imagine a world without death tax. Paris Hiltons everywhere.

[Caiyuo]

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11845

buffett is one giggling ass man

yanked out erskine bowles & alan simpson to watch afterward http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11294

[Kurokikaze]

Eric Bolling called Buffet a socialist on his show... It's worth watching for the rage. Dudes a fucking moron.

Buffet is like living proof of how good capitalism can be for some.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201108150031#.TkqliSrSRgA

Yes, the bottom 47% do not pay income taxes, but they do pay Social Security, payroll taxes, sales taxes and all these other taxes that when added up come out to a bigger percentage of their total income than what the top 1% pays.

In Texas, the poorest group actually pays the most as a percent of their income than any other bracket. The graph probably looks the same on the national level... ;/

[Niiro]

As soon as that woman started talking I completely lost it, I swear if I was any farther from the mouse I'd be dead from a brain aneurism right now.