Hate Crime or Not?

[Day]

Intent matters when dealing with self defense, accidental deaths, manslaughter, 2nd/1st degree etc..

[Uzor]

I'd love to see you argue how he put a gun to his head and fired two shots in self defense - or that he accidentally fired two shots to his head.

That still doesn't counter the point in why hate crime should be treated as different than a normal crime. How is self defense against a black man different from self defense against a white man? How is murdering a black man in cold blood any different from murdering a white man in cold blood?

[solanis]

I'd love to see you argue how he put a gun to his head and fired two shots in self defense - or that he accidentally fired two shots to his head.

That still doesn't counter the point in why hate crime should be treated as different than a normal crime. How is self defense against a black man different from self defense against a white man? How is murdering a black man in cold blood any different from murdering a white man in cold blood?

I don't think there is any difference unless you killed the black guy or white guy because of his skin color, at which point you dun goofed. same as the difference between executing your wife, or accidently killing someone in a car crash. intent matters.

[Day]

I'd love to see you argue how he put a gun to his head and fired two shots in self defense - or that he accidentally fired two shots to his head.

That still doesn't counter the point in why hate crime should be treated as different than a normal crime. How is self defense against a black man different from self defense against a white man? How is murdering a black man in cold blood any different from murdering a white man in cold blood?

I'm not talking about this specific case you fucking moron.

Furthermore I agree hate crimes are bullshit. Are you just reading what you want to be on the screen?

[Salodin]

It being a hate crime matters not because of his punishment but because of the victim/future victim/other gay people who live in fear of something like this happening to them because of ignorant ar-tards. If it's just a run of the mill murder, you sentence the dude and you're done. If it's a hate crime, you try (usually in vain) to educate people on the topic to prevent said crimes in the future.

I guess a better way to put it is one could be discussed and expanded upon to hopefully prevent a death out of ignorance (whether it be killing some one for their color or sexual orientation), while the other is just brushing it off as a stupid person killing another because they slept with their wife/stole their brobox/etc.

[Uzor]

I don't think there is any difference unless you killed the black guy or white guy because of his skin color, at which point you dun goofed. same as the difference between executing your wife, or accidently killing someone in a car crash. intent matters.

Please do explain to me how accidentally killing someone in a car crash is murder. And why does it matter if you killed someone because of his skin color? It's still murder.

I'm not talking about the state of someone's mind at the time of committing an offense. I'm talking about the purpose of something that is intended. They're both intent - I'm talking purely of the second one. As in, killing someone purposely because they have black skin is no different than purposely killing someone that have white skin. Of course intent matters when it comes to the difference between an accident and murder; but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

It being a hate crime matters not because of his punishment but because of the victim/future victim/other gay people who live in fear of something like this happening to them because of ignorant ar-tards. If it's just a run of the mill murder, you sentence the dude and you're done. If it's a hate crime, you try (usually in vain) to educate people on the topic to prevent said crimes in the future.

And that's the source of the issue - do you truly believe that someone will go "Oh, I shouldn't kill him because he's gay. I've read before that people get a harsher punishment for that. Oh, if only he was straight!" before they commit a murder? Of course it doesn't educate people; it's the entirely wrong way to go about it. It also does nothing to the gay people when people get a harsher sentence. I highly doubt they all go "oh, I feel much safer now that I know that if someone kills me, they'll get a harsher sentence because it was a hate crime! Justice has been served!".

[Day]

It being a hate crime matters not because of his punishment but because of the victim/future victim/other gay people who live in fear of something like this happening to them because of ignorant ar-tards. If it's just a run of the mill murder, you sentence the dude and you're done. If it's a hate crime, you try (usually in vain) to educate people on the topic to prevent said crimes in the future.

I guess a better way to put it is one could be discussed and expanded upon to hopefully prevent a death out of ignorance (whether it be killing some one for their color or sexual orientation), while the other is just brushing it off as a stupid person killing another because they slept with their wife/stole their brobox/etc.

I don't really follow the logic. How about we educate not to take another's life regardless of reason. I don't think most people "brush off" murders really.

[solanis]

Please do explain to me how accidentally killing someone in a car crash is murder. And why does it matter if you killed someone because of his skin color? It's still murder.

I'm not talking about the state of someone's mind at the time of committing an offense. I'm talking about the purpose of something that is intended. They're both intent - I'm talking purely of the second one. As in, killing someone purposely because they have black skin is no different than purposely killing someone that have white skin. Of course intent matters when it comes to the difference between an accident and murder; but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I'm not sure what you're talking about then. are you asking if you kill someone specifically because they're white or specifically because they're black, is there a difference? no, there isn't, they're both hate crimes. are you talking about gradations within intent or something? because shooting a white guy because he fucked your wife and shooting a gay guy because he enjoys cock and you feel you have the right to execute him for that, are not the same intent.

[Salodin]

For instance, a person is killed in a robbery. Person died because they were getting robbed, and while sad it doesn't really go any further then "being at wrong place at wrong time".

Now, person is killed because he's gay. It's no longer a matter of "wrong place at wrong time", it's a matter of being killed because of an ignorant fucktard who can't leave you and your life style alone.

In one case, you can't really do anything about it; whether the robber was there out of desperation/he just robs people for his income. In the other, you could try and educate people that homosexuals aren't a plague, that it's perfectly fine, and that they should just let people be. One murder is out of what could be desperation, while the other is just out of hate.

While I can see why people don't see the distinction, I don't think it's a stretch to see why people would label one as different from the other, and try to deal with it accordingly. Of course, I do think the sentencing should be the same, but what comes after wards I think should be different.

[Uzor]

No, they're not the same intent - but they're both murder and should be judged as such. The guy who shot the guy sucking cock shouldn't get a harsher punishment simply because the victim was gay. They both had the intent to kill - placing a difference between the two intents is by itself racism; even if it's beneficial.

Edit:

For instance, a person is killed in a robbery. Person died because they were getting robbed, and while sad it doesn't really go any further then "being at wrong place at wrong time".

Now, person is killed because he's gay. It's no longer a matter of "wrong place at wrong time", it's a matter of being killed because of an ignorant fucktard who can't leave you and your life style alone.

In one case, you can't really do anything about it; whether the robber was there out of desperation/he just robs people for his income. In the other, you could try and educate people that homosexuals aren't a plague, that it's perfectly fine, and that they should just let people be. One murder is out of what could be desperation, while the other is just out of hate.

While I can see why people don't see the distinction, I don't think it's a stretch to see why people would label one as different from the other, and try to deal with it accordingly. Of course, I do think the sentencing should be the same, but what comes after wards I think should be different.

That's different original intent. That has nothing to do with whether the victim was black or white or gay. Whether the robbery victim was black or white shouldn't matter, just as whether or not the person was gay or not in the second case shouldn't matter.

[Souj]

Please do explain to me how accidentally killing someone in a car crash is murder.

I'd say driving drunk or on any drugs, or just being stupidly reckless (like driving at night with no lights on on purpose, or playing chicken) is worth calling it a murder, since it definitely was not planned or on purpose and truly was an accident, but due to actions you purposely did, caused a person to die.

[Day]

I don't think gays being killed for liking the same genitals they have is happening on such a large scale that we need special laws for them. I guess I could be wrong, seems like you'd hear a lot more about it or there would be some kind of homo death count thing going if so. I think murdering someone for basically no reason probably already falls under a crime with a pretty strict punishment.

I guess I can see what you are saying about educating people, but I'm not sure the average human wants to end another persons life over their sexual preference.

[Uzor]

I'd say driving drunk or on any drugs, or just being stupidly reckless (like driving at night with no lights on on purpose, or playing chicken) is worth calling it a murder, since it definitely was not planned or on purpose and truly was an accident, but due to actions you purposely did, caused a person to die.

It's still not the same as intently aiming for a person with the car and accelerating towards them.

[solanis]

I don't think gays being killed for liking the same genitals they have is happening on such a large scale that we need special laws for them. I guess I could be wrong, seems like you'd hear a lot more about it or there would be some kind of homo death count thing going if so. I think murdering someone for basically no reason probably already falls under a crime with a pretty strict punishment.

I guess I can see what you are saying about educating people, but I'm not sure the average human wants to end another persons life over their sexual preference.

extra laws are super easy to have, day, though your concern over simplicity of the legal code is... charming

[Day]

extra laws are annoying. also I didn't understand your insult so there.

[solanis]

oh okay then

[Dimmauk]

Both cases involved murder and a hate crime, both should be put to death.

[Uzor]

Take the murder in the OP for example; Should it be considered a hate crime if the victim was a white straight male but a nerd? Emo? Goth? Geek? Jock? Bully? Neither? All of them? Why shouldn't it be considered a hate crime? why should it?

What's the difference between all of the situations? What isn't different?

[solanis]

Take the murder in the OP for example; Should it be considered a hate crime if the victim was a white straight male but a nerd? Emo? Goth? Geek? Jock? Bully? Neither? All of them? Why shouldn't it be considered a hate crime? why should it?

What's the difference between all of the situations?

nerds, emos, goths, geeks, jocks, and bullies aren't a systematically oppressed and marginalized class. attempting a comparison between the plight of, say, a black woman and a jock is... distasteful, to say the least.

[Day]

systematically oppressed lol