Random Fail XII: dont takl me small fish^^

[Palides]

This is what he's talking about. It's obviously hard to get a high TH sample, but one guy tried on later page. He noticed an increase in drop rate, but the sample size is very low. At the very least, we can be fairly confident from the testing that the difference between TH2 and TH6 on normal drops (like Dynamis currency) is pretty freaking small.

Sample sizes are too small.

[Innuendo]

What's the distinction you're making in the Fafnir vs mass example, since it's obviously a monster, because I didn't pick up on it from this? (Don't fall back on semantics, it's clear you are making a distinction between the two)

You can just move on to the next mob if you're killing lots of them and your item doesn't drop. If Fafnir doesn't drop the wine then you have to use another pop item, which costs a lot more than just killing another trash mob.

[Byrthnoth]

What's the distinction you're making in the Fafnir vs mass example, since it's obviously a monster, because I didn't pick up on it from this? (Don't fall back on semantics, it's clear you are making a distinction between the two)

You don't have time to build TH on Dynamis monsters and slowing down kill speed hurts your drops/run. Like, lets assume that getting TH10 triples your drop rates (it probably doesn't). Going from TH6 to TH10 is going to take you quite a few minutes with your back to the monster, and the trash monster probably doesn't have enough HP to survive it. Look at how few high TH samples Vold manages to get later in the thread when he's purely killing Aura Statues with SA/TA. In a situation like this, you're pretty much limited to low TH due to monster HP and the feasibility of proccing.

With Fafnir, he has a lot of HP and there's no rush to kill him. If you're popping him then you've already got 1.5mil invested and can kill him with SA/TA from a few THFs within the time limit. There's no reason to not just hold him and build TH as high as you can. The last time I did Fafnir/Nidhogg, we teamed up with a JP party of 4 THFs and 1 RDM (giving us 6 THFs total). They just SA/TAed it to death and got TH10-11.

Sample sizes are too small.

The Colibri samples on the first page are being compared to a huge sample done by Thorny in the past, so we can pretty conclusively say that TH3/4 doesn't give a notable boost compared to TH2. You're looking at a ~5% max boost to Colibri Feathers from TH based on that test.

[Rez]

Those links provide interesting reading no doubt, thanks for the data.

I was hoping the quoted point you made regarding Fafnir and mass killing was not related to kill speed (hp) or comparative outlay (force pop) or for other net gains, which is why I asked. Your point is not without merit but stating bringing a THF is not worth it because TH upgrades are impractical is one issue, and discounting the effect of TH (increases included) from a THF main for adding no further value entirely another.

The data provided also has little by way of samples for TH10 and none for TH11 that I could find, seemingly limited to single digit sample sizes for the former, did I miss some?

What are the drop rates across the full spectrum of TH possible based solely on their actual effect on items obtained? Limit other variables such as mob availability, hit points, time restrictions, cost etc

For those drawing conclusions based on the full range of TH, I had assumed that they were doing so based on a full range of data and not stopping well before that point for the sake of convenience.

It doesn't make them wrong, and I would like to see a line drawn under this issue one way or another, but from the data you provided, the evidence doesn't support the entire set of claims seen over the last series of posts.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, I hate to point out the obvious again, but my statement was that THF main is equivalent to /THF much of the time. Generally you aren't killing HNMs with nothing but SA/TA. Most of the time, be it Abyssea, Dynamis, Salvage, Limbus, or just normal farming, you're killing monsters with 0-2 TH procs. In most of those events (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage), you're not actually using Thief's Knife at all, so it's really TH5-7. Vold's sample of TH5-7 is fairly large, and doesn't show any substantial improvement from TH2.

...and the trash monster probably doesn't have enough HP to survive it.

That's why there is a low sample of TH9/10 monsters in Vold's testing. Iirc, he was doing nothing but SA/TA with Thief's Knife without DEX/AGI gear. Unless you've got a substantial sample of TH2 and TH10 Fafnirs, we're going to have to be satisfied with that. Even if you did and the drop rate at TH10 was dramatically higher, the first paragraph of this post would still be relevant and true.

I mean, you want to talk about a high TH? How about 12 Glavoids with TH9+, 10 of which dropped single shells? ilu2, Glavoid. Should Fransisco have brought a THF along to Turul? Not if he needed a healer instead. If you're choosing between being able to kill something and being able to kill something with the marginal improvement THF potentially provides over /THF, I think the decision is pretty clear.

[Rez]

Should Fransisco have brought a THF along to Turul? Not if he needed a healer instead. If you're choosing between being able to kill something and being able to kill something with the marginal improvement THF potentially provides over /THF, I think the decision is pretty clear.

I already mentioned exactly this earlier, it's not what I was asking. If you go back to his first post on the matter you'll see I asked if he even brought a Thief, and by extension TH at all, though that was implied. ( Still curious on his answer just for the sake of it )

Forget all the practicalities of testing, I'm aware those issues exist and it's not relevant to this particular question of mine, though you've answered the it partially. I wanted to know the effect of TH across the range, ceteris paribus. If you can't provide it, just say so, there's no need to introduce other variables.

Particularly in the case of statements above regarding 3 and 10 being negligible and anything above 2 being bad, those aren't really supported by the data you've shown, aside from just limiting it to 5/6(7). I'm not disputing your conclusion up to the range of data provided, nor does it make the other claims necessarily wrong.

In the interest of not endlessly rehashing this thread I'm fine with what I found out, let's just move on.

[NynJa]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1...1110161717.png
wyrmazurka time?

[Karbuncle]

I already mentioned exactly this earlier, it's not what I was asking. If you go back to his first post on the matter you'll see I asked if he even brought a Thief, and by extension TH at all, though that was implied. ( Still curious on his answer just for the sake of it )

Forget all the practicalities of testing, I'm aware those issues exist and it's not relevant to this particular question of mine, though you've answered the it partially. I wanted to know the effect of TH across the range, ceteris paribus. If you can't provide it, just say so, there's no need to introduce other variables.

Particularly in the case of statements above regarding 3 and 10 being negligible and anything above 2 being bad, those aren't really supported by the data you've shown, aside from just limiting it to 5/6(7). I'm not disputing your conclusion up to the range of data provided, nor does it make the other claims necessarily wrong.

In the interest of not endlessly rehashing this thread I'm fine with what I found out, let's just move on.

I know you said you're fine.. But I'd just like to add. Byrth isn't saying TH Above 2 is bad, Just that its benefits in most situations rarely outweigh the cost.

Rather it be bringing a THF Main over a DD, or holding a mob to try and upgrade TH. Or having someone come THF instead of WAR, when you can have a WHM sub THF.

The % increase in drop rates with TH Beyond level 2 Is negligible to the point its generally in your best interest to focus on KillSpeed over TH procing when it comes to events like Dynamis and what have you. Its the same reason my THF's knife is rotting in my Mog Sack, Its not worth the DPS hit to even bother equipping it these days, first hit or not. (When it comes to mass farming Like Dynamis)

(Not Touching the HNM Part as Byrth explained that quite well)

Its not to say the Benefits don't exist, Its just that they're very small, and generally not worth the trade-off. As explained above, rather that trade off be Reduced Kill speed or spending 20 minutes looking for a THF instead of making a mage come /THF

[shen]

So I went to help an LS mate finish up his Kannagi who's been bugging me for forever for TH7 and to help kill Briareus etc 'cuz Briareus is hard. So I say okay, I mean I wouldn't mind the +2's and all.

Anyways I zone in and he begins saying how legit his WS set is and everything and I make suggestions like augmented Byakko's Haidate and Rancor Collar to which he replies with this:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1...1111035721.png

I don't get how people can be so far along in the trial and not know this stuff ;/ All I could do was facepalm

[dannyl]

You'd be very surprised

[noodles355]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1...1110161717.png
wyrmazurka time?

Is that the eva-based Idle set we had a disagreement over earlier in this/last thread? It still annoys me that ohat and SH+1/Antares models are still 2 of our top eva pieces -.- so damn ugly... tbh after that "discussion" I'd probably follow your example and idle in eva+movement if it wasn't so damn ugly (ohat/SH+1/denali/ocelot/skadi is hidious).

[Koyangi]

at 95, doesnt a THF cap evasion in the typical 26% haste set and torero torque anyway?

[Karbuncle]

at 95, doesnt a THF cap evasion in the typical 26% haste set and torero torque anyway?

On a lot, But not all.

If i have to evasion I always pull a Eva-DD Hybrid set, Wouldn't be caught dead in a Full EVA Build in Abyssea... ever

EVAR

Coincidentally almost every time i die, I'm in my Evasion gear :D

[shen]

There's Theia's Hairpin now if you can find one in stock >.> Still I would like to have something than the SH/Antares models =/

[Draylo]

On a lot, But not all.

If i have to evasion I always pull a Eva-DD Hybrid set, Wouldn't be caught dead in a Full EVA Build in Abyssea... ever

EVAR

Coincidentally almost every time i die, I'm in my Evasion gear :D

How do you know you're capped eva? If you aren't, how exactly does a hybrid build help more over a full eva build if you're turned?

[Foxer]

If a BLM wearing full AF3+0, dark staff, and shit all around, along with a NIN wearing 5/5 AF3+1 and no Rajas/Suppa, and a THF and healer wearing what every other inbred THF and healer wears nowadays wipes to Amhuluk, AND it goes white is it OK to steal?

Bitch gave me mad lip, although I've done this before, just not to them.

[Ratatapa]

2 fail here

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8...1112083231.png

1) The gear of the MNK
2) the number of people and number of WHM for the chariot

Like it's hard ....

[NynJa]

I really have no interest in breaking down spellcast builds for every singue situation..."If I'm idle in abyssea wear X, if I'm in voidwatch not engaged wear Y, if I'm in town wear epeenshit, if I'm ..." etc etc etc.

And yes shits ugly, it feels even more out of place on nin...kinda does tempt me to make a towngear set on visible pieces -.- Of course it also serves its purpose of trollin people (WTF MANDAU AND SH?!?!?!??!)

[Karbuncle]

How do you know you're capped eva? If you aren't, how exactly does a hybrid build help more over a full eva build if you're turned?

Mmm, If its something strong enough to need a full EVA build, We generally have a MNK Tanking it anyway. I'm usually the token TH Whore and/or the Low-man tank.

Pretty simple answer to that really

If you're not facing the mob, Obviously a DD-hybrid build is not required. If you're hitting the mob for whatever reason... Its Abyssea... You could probably get away with /WAR if your WHM is good (bar mobs with their fun 1-shot capabilities).

But for your theoretical situation, If i was turned around, I do have a Full EVA Build. i Should probably reiterate my past statement. "I'd never be caught dead meleeing in a full EVA build". This satisfies all parties :D

[Vlorsutes]

2 fail here

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8...1112083231.png

1) The gear of the MNK
2) the number of people and number of WHM for the chariot

Like it's hard ....

Not to make excuses, but the Whm out there might have been out there for chances at getting the Orison Earring rather than actual difficulty or they were also needing Rani credit. However, as you said, the Mnk's gear is bad, and it's even worse that they felt the need to /Nin in Abyssea.