Patch 4.3 Content Preview

[FailureMidgard]

people are quitting because its slower content / less content, and ppl don't like the HM model as much as they did the Ulduar/Naxx HM model. anybody who says Cata has had content at the same / or faster pace then other xpac's is living under a fanboy rock.

Blizz is really scared about the future of their mmo to be talking about stuff after cata before blizzcon. Did they honestly just say they are going to talk toe homogenization out of each class? Because there sure as hell isn't 30 classes in the game when all tanks basically play the same and so many other classes do also

A lot of people do like the current HM model far more than the ulduar model (How did you even mention Naxx...Naxx80 was a complete joke and had no hardmodes, Naxx60 was cool but the entire game was different then and it took months to clear on normal). In fact, I'm at a loss as to how people can like the "ulduar model". Fighting the normal mode for 2-6 minutes just to later activate the hard mode is awful design. Kinda like phase1 KelThuzad was awful design. The fight should start out fun, difficult, etc, not have some prelude of bullshit building up to it. If people feel it just makes more sense - I guess, some fights the "hardmode" was ok (Firefighter, Freya, FL, etc), but the Vezax/XT shit was beyond stupid. Shockingly enough, the majority of ulduar hardmodes were more similar to how they are now than not...

Also, your comment about Cata content is just wrong. Some of us just don't care about certain parts of content - which is perfectly fine, and yes I fully realize they can't design the game for 1 group of people. Also, Cata isn't over. Wrath at release had 1 raid encounter worth of content. Naxx80 was not content. Sartharion3D was content. Malygos was like half content. From a raiding PoV, Cataclysm has had far more content so far than Wrath did. Period. Yes wrath had more "new" zones. Lvling lasted all of 2 days, so that's cool and all...more heroics? That's nice, but that lasted like a week. New class? ok...there's things I'm happy they are adding, but they don't give everyone something to do.

We had to wait about 7months for Firelands, which was a bit long, but both TBC and Wrath had longer waits. I still don't think Wrath released with content (For raiders...Naxx really really didn't count), so that was a 13months spree since Sunwell. BT to Sunwell was ~10 months. The people saying cata is at the same (oh btw Naxx60 was out for 7-8months also) or faster pace is just basing it on these numbers. If you want to look at the game as a whole - great for you, a lot of us think that raiding is fun and this game is pretty fucking awful outside of raiding - there's just nothing to do except make a new char, then quit that char when you can't raid. But as far as "relevant content to raiders" goes, Cataclysm is the same or faster rate. It has nothing to do with being a Fanboy, I've quit this game plenty of times and would love something else to play - but I've had far more worthwhile stuff to do in Cata than I did in Wrath (which IMO is the worst expansion to date, but ICC was ok/good). Just because you care about that other content that isn't raiding, doesn't mean we all do, which is fine, but calling people fanboys because they think the game sucks outside of raiding is a bit stupid.

So FFXI has around 5 jobs?

If you want to oversimplify it as much as that other guy did WoW, then yes. Yea, DPS kinda plays like DPS. Healers end up playing similarly, tanks end up being similar. Playing to a minimum competence level, this can easily be stated. That being said, true optimization goes past that and does make classes play a bit differently, but in the end, a good player can still do any of em. It's funny how many people say "omg game is so easy" because all they care about is how to play to said minimum competence level.

[aurik]

Wrath had less raiding content than Cata? What?

10 months into 3.x: Ulduar (14 bosses) + Sarth + Maly + ToC (5 bosses) + Naxxramas (14 bosses)
10 months into 4.x: T11 (13 bosses) + Firelands (7 bosses)

Even ignoring Fischer-Price Babby's First Raid Naxxramas, 3.x delivered the same amount of raiding content per time unit. And it's hardly fair to dismiss naxxramas, it *was* raiding content.

[FailureMidgard]

Wrath had less raiding content than Cata? What?

10 months into 3.x: Ulduar (14 bosses) + Sarth + Maly + ToC (5 bosses) + Naxxramas (14 bosses)
10 months into 4.x: T11 (13 bosses) + Firelands (7 bosses)

Even ignoring Fischer-Price Babby's First Raid Naxxramas, 3.x delivered the same amount of raiding content per time unit. And it's hardly fair to dismiss naxxramas, it *was* raiding content.

Naxxramas was not raiding content unless you define raiding purely by raid size, and even then it wasn't really raid content. Naxx10 was 5mannable at release, Naxx25 was 15mannable at release, and in fact part of the dumb meta -required- you to sit people (and boy did it make people mad when they realized it made it easier to get immortal when you sat people). We'll just have to agree to disagree on Naxx. When we full cleared it without wiping a few hrs after hitting lvl cap, and not even running heroics first, I'm sorry but I just don't think it's really raid content. Yes, you had to make a "raid" to kill it, but it was a joke. Pugs were full clearing it within 2 weeks of release. It was a raid, but it was not content. On top of that, a lot of us had already done it all, so it wasn't even new. Going back and running Sunwell70 was honestly more challenging (and fun) than Naxx80.

Past that, your 10 month timeframe is a little arbitrary. If you look at a 7month timeline while accepting my proposal Naxx wasn't content, Cata will win. 10 months is hugging TOC's release (and in fact I quit Wrath before then), because in fact 8-9 months in there was less content than here. If 4.3 beats the 13 month date (That'd be January), Cata will leapfrog ahead of Wrath until 13months is hit, at which point ICC will push Wrath in front. But let's not forget the 12 month grind that was ICC (okay, I guess Onyxia came out somewhere in wrath, as did halion during icc).

Really though, the biggest difference between us is going to be Naxxramas. Maybe I'm biased because I did it at 60. Either way, I'm not alone, and a lot of the hardcore community thought it was a joke, not content, and on top of that left us with literally nothing to do for some 6-7 months. When all of the raid content in the first week took us 1 night (like, I'm cool with 1night clears during farm, take a break and relax before the next progression comes out), it's really not content. But still, comparing 2.5 months (halfway) into a tier with <1 month into a tier isn't really fair. You should compare something like the month before ICC came out to the month before 4.3 hits, or the month before FL hit to the month before TOC hit, otherwise regardless which is faster, looking at a specific timeframe will always favor the expansion that had the most recent patch at that time.

[aurik]

10 months is about as arbitrary as totally dismissing Naxx which was legitimate raiding content, albeit tuned so easy because it was meant to be a raiding primer, with Ulduar being the "real" launch instance of Wrath, but just delayed 6 months. And you are definitely biased because you did it at 60. I didn't do it at 60 (nor at 70), and Naxx10 was a pretty enjoyable experience. So much so that I used to pug it during 3.0. As for sunwell...it was a joke at 70 after the 30% nerf, way easier than Naxx. The hardest part about raiding sunwell at 80 was finding people that were willing to go back and do it.

Honestly, I think you're misremembering how easy naxx was at launch. Not everyone cleared it within a week or two, and even if you want to use that metric, most of the people who would have cleared naxx in a night or two in the first week also cleared Firelands normal the first week as well...

I guess the thing to take away here is that the addition of a "heroic" level where you can't get away with bad dps and screwing up gimmicks was a pretty good move even when the only substantial changes to the fight are a tighter tuning, because bads/casuals won't really experience heroic modes as content, and goods/hardcores will dismiss normal modes as so easy they aren't really content.

As for 4.3, I have a feeling it will slip until 2012, due to Blizzard's focus on Diablo 3.

[Kaylia]

If they brought back naxx difficulty raids that can be pugged without thinking I think that would be the best thing for this game right now, and keep heroic modes the way they are now.

I haven't had any issue pugging BoT, BWD and ToT4W since they nerfed it. I can count the number of wipe on one hand, and the raid were finished every single times.

Where would we access it though? I mean it might be an interesting event if we were to board ships the first time and set out for the island, fighting along the way...but I highly doubt it will happen and most likely would be a teleport crystal or something.

I'm sure they could think of something interesting if they wanted to do that(boat, airship, ride on Alexstrasza's back ). I really hope it wouldnt be a teleport because that's lame, but w/e.

However, with the new posts, Idk what the fuck they want to do with Deathwing's raid. It almost feel like you're going to start it at Wyrmrest temple (wouldnt make sense to start on the island, go to wyrmrest, than come back to the maelstrom).

Fighting the normal mode for 2-6 minutes just to later activate the hard mode is awful design.

One or two bosses had retarded activation, but in most case, it was relatively seemless in the fight. Not very different from the current hardmode.

While I personally don't see a huge difference in term of encounter between both type, I still think ulduar's method help immersion a little more. It's not something that make or break a raid, or that I would even classify has "content", but when done properly, I still think it win.

[FailureMidgard]

10 months is about as arbitrary as totally dismissing Naxx which was legitimate raiding content, albeit tuned so easy because it was meant to be a raiding primer, with Ulduar being the "real" launch instance of Wrath, but just delayed 6 months. And you are definitely biased because you did it at 60. I didn't do it at 60 (nor at 70), and Naxx10 was a pretty enjoyable experience. So much so that I used to pug it during 3.0. As for sunwell...it was a joke at 70 after the 30% nerf, way easier than Naxx. The hardest part about raiding sunwell at 80 was finding people that were willing to go back and do it.

Honestly, I think you're misremembering how easy naxx was at launch. Not everyone cleared it within a week or two, and even if you want to use that metric, most of the people who would have cleared naxx in a night or two in the first week also cleared Firelands normal the first week as well...

I guess the thing to take away here is that the addition of a "heroic" level where you can't get away with bad dps and screwing up gimmicks was a pretty good move even when the only substantial changes to the fight are a tighter tuning, because bads/casuals won't really experience heroic modes as content, and goods/hardcores will dismiss normal modes as so easy they aren't really content.

As for 4.3, I have a feeling it will slip until 2012, due to Blizzard's focus on Diablo 3.

I may have a skewed viewpoint, but what I am remembering is exactly how it happened. It's also silly to compare Firelands normal to Naxxramas80. For the people who are working on normal FL - props to you, I'm glad the game has changed and you and I can both have the content we enjoy. But for all people want to discount heroic as not new content - it's amazing new content because it gives people like me something to do -WHILE NOT HURTING PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE CASUAL-. I agree with you Aurik, it was an amazing change, even when mechanics don't change a lot, but it really does count as more content - not because any given person has extra content to do - but because more people have content to do. Content to me is something that is somewhat challenging, that i can go in, work on, improve our playing as a group, and eventually overcome. That's what I enjoy. 1 or 2 shotting a new boss is not fun to me, farming gear is not fun to me. Sure, wrath may have had more content if you want to look at a large spectrum - but if your goal was progression raiding, Naxx80 was not content, FL normal isn't content, but FL heroic. Admittedly, some of that shit was cleared fast, but back in the Naxx days, people weren't raiding 12 hrs a day for 7 days straight when a new tier hit...I was at the top of progression, and we raided 5-6 nights a week for 4 hrs, heh. And I won't call anyone wrong for calling FL normal content - it's really up to your personal playstyle, and this type of person may think that Naxx80 was content too - but Naxx80 alienated the playstyle of many many people (no, it wasn't a majority of >50%, yes it was a significant size of the player base tho), and these people have every right and are correct in being happier with the start of cata than the start of wrath, imo.

One or two bosses had retarded activation, but in most case, it was relatively seemless in the fight. Not very different from the current hardmode.

While I personally don't see a huge difference in term of encounter between both type, I still think ulduar's method help immersion a little more. It's not something that make or break a raid, or that I would even classify has "content", but when done properly, I still think it win.

I'll agree it helps with immersion I guess, and it makes more sense when there's a reason it gets harder, but the dungeon finder ruins that too, as does allowing pvp queueing in cities (or now with the pvp finder), etc...immersion has it's bonuses, so does being able to sit down and play the game, and not run across the world to then play the game. The fact that the different difficulties are available to different people is the most important thing, imo.

[Meresgi]

So FFXI has around 5 jobs?

I think more classes in FFXI had niches as compared to present WoW. Old WoW each class had something major and unique about it, which I enjoyed. I think what broke it though as the downgrading of how many people were in a raid, in 25mans it's not so bad but because of 10mans EVERY class needs every buff and debuff almost.

[Eaglestrike]

I think more classes in FFXI had niches as compared to present WoW. Old WoW each class had something major and unique about it, which I enjoyed. I think what broke it though as the downgrading of how many people were in a raid, in 25mans it's not so bad but because of 10mans EVERY class needs every buff and debuff almost.

I'll agree if by "little niche" you mean "this job should never be invited because they're not good enough at what we need".

Which is, of course, WHY WoW changed their class model and went to make everything even, so you're not fucked just because you like to play a certain class/spec.

[Meresgi]

I'll agree if by "little niche" you mean "this job should never be invited because they're not good enough at what we need".

Which is, of course, WHY WoW changed their class model and went to make everything even, so you're not fucked just because you like to play a certain class/spec.

They could have made unique class abilities that didn't completely make some fights one sided for other classes. Why give mages, shamans and hunters bloodlust? Why not give shamans bloodlust, mages some other super ability that isnt bloodlust, and hunters something else to make them ALL unique, and sure some fights might require more of 1 class then another...but shit it's still that way in Firelands where some classes just shine better then others, even with all the homogenization Blizzard has done.

Shit when I made a DK as my main at the start of WoTLK after playing pally and warlock throughout vanilla and BC I was stoked, I could be a melee magic pet class, so combined both of my favorite classes, and I was undead AND I could fucking come back as a ghoul if I died, that was awesome..then Blizzard turned around and took out Shadow of Death which made the class a lot less fun, just with that 1 stroke they took out a fun little vanity aspect to make it in line with every other class.

Maybe im in the minority but I like MMOs where classes are very different and have their own niche, even if that means one fight doesnt suit them but another does...just don't put gear on the one boss for a class that sucks at the fight and there you go, no issues and you can keep shit different.

[Kaylia]

Because you would be stacking hunter, mage and shaman for all 3 awesome ability, just like you wanted a shaman in every group.

[FailureMidgard]

They could have made unique class abilities that didn't completely make some fights one sided for other classes. Why give mages, shamans and hunters bloodlust? Why not give shamans bloodlust, mages some other super ability that isnt bloodlust, and hunters something else to make them ALL unique, and sure some fights might require more of 1 class then another...but shit it's still that way in Firelands where some classes just shine better then others, even with all the homogenization Blizzard has done.

Shit when I made a DK as my main at the start of WoTLK after playing pally and warlock throughout vanilla and BC I was stoked, I could be a melee magic pet class, so combined both of my favorite classes, and I was undead AND I could fucking come back as a ghoul if I died, that was awesome..then Blizzard turned around and took out Shadow of Death which made the class a lot less fun, just with that 1 stroke they took out a fun little vanity aspect to make it in line with every other class.

Maybe im in the minority but I like MMOs where classes are very different and have their own niche, even if that means one fight doesnt suit them but another does...just don't put gear on the one boss for a class that sucks at the fight and there you go, no issues and you can keep shit different.

In theory, your idea is perfectly fine. In practice it's awful. For starters, people want to play the game. Sitting out on xyz every week 'cause your class can't do the fight worth shit is actually not fun to most people. On top of that, it means you'd have to have a 20 person roster for a 10man guild or w/e, or require people to have alts, or just not progress (or the fights have to be tuned so that gimps without said gimmick can kill it, meaning with said gimmick it becomes a joke).
Furthermore, it makes 10m raiding beyond dumb. If 10 classes each have a super ability, then raiding with any comp besides 1 of each class means you're missing X amt of dps. Let's say each ability averages the raid 2k dps per person. On Baleroc, dropping 1 class now means you just lost 14k raid DPS. Dropping 2 classes puts you at -28k raid DPS. It goes from the current ~26k per person needed with 2 healers/30k with 1 healer down to 22k and 26k respectively. The fight becomes a total joke. Homogenization allows other classes to be played, while having blizzard able to properly tune fights.

Yea, some classes are better overall (it's impossible to get it perfect) and others worse. Some classes are better when put in certain scenarios, while others shine in others (some are less penalized by movement, benefit more from multiple targets, etc). Regardless, no classes have a real swing of even 7k dps (which is about the bare minimum a current raid buff gives...). The current model is there so that you can raid with the people you want to raid with, and for the most part don't have to worry too much about some perfect raid comp. Some amount of uniqueness is nice, but it's a slippery slope. There are things like Ice Block, Metamorphosis, Dispersion that have their niches.

All in all, I think it's well done how it is now, for the most part. When classes were more "unique" there was also less versatility. Damage meters were rogue/hunter/mage/warlock/warrior. No other class was there, because in their uniqueness, they were leaps and bounds better.

[Meresgi]

Because you would be stacking hunter, mage and shaman for all 3 awesome ability, just like you wanted a shaman in every group.

You seemed to have missed my point, I was only talking about the whole Bloodlust example. EVERY class would have something unique about them besides class resources, something largely unique they could bring to each fight, even if sometimes it wasn't as good as another class for that fight. And like I said, make bosses that were horrible for DK's to be part of, not drop DK loot etc etc.

For starters, people want to play the game. Sitting out on xyz every week 'cause your class can't do the fight worth shit is actually not fun to most people.

The only time people would be sitting out is in a very hardcore raid setting and hardmodes where every bit of dps/hps counts..even if say hunters were better then mages on a fight, on normal it wouldnt matter at all. And most very hardcore guilds sit people on some fights anyways so what difference is there in all honesty?

And when im talking about uniqueness i'm talking more about fun gimmicky things and just over class variety. Not that each class has a super move or buff that equates to 2k dps but can't stack if another one of that class is in the raid. Shadow of death is a perfect example, it was fun to come back as a ghoul and beat on a boss and explode, or even being able to raise our allies as ghouls and have them beat on bosses THAT was fun..yet now it's just another battle rez, and we have no shadow of death. Maybe i'm just completely bent out of shape over the whole DK uniqueness being destroyed mid WoTLK to now.

Something needs to be done by Blizzard though because the game is quite frankly very stale for people who have been playing it for so long.

[Guitarman]

And when im talking about uniqueness i'm talking more about fun gimmicky things and just over class variety. Not that each class has a super move or buff that equates to 2k dps but can't stack if another one of that class is in the raid. Shadow of death is a perfect example, it was fun to come back as a ghoul and beat on a boss and explode, or even being able to raise our allies as ghouls and have them beat on bosses THAT was fun..yet now it's just another battle rez, and we have no shadow of death. Maybe i'm just completely bent out of shape over the whole DK uniqueness being destroyed mid WoTLK to now.

Something needs to be done by Blizzard though because the game is quite frankly very stale for people who have been playing it for so long.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm pre-emptively rolling my eyes because eventually someone is going to come in here and complain that you're bitching again, without fully understanding it's because you enjoy the game but hate the direction its going. Ultimately it's 50% blizzard's fault and 50% the communities fault that class uniqueness is being shut down entirely. It's the communities fault for bitching, and it's blizzards fault for listening to that 5% who bitch. PVP players didnt like shadow of death, so blizzard bent over and removed it under the guise of "it's too hard to work with and has too many issues, so we're removing it". Which is complete bullshit, because out of the 1000+ times i used it, not ONCE did i have any issues. I loved the fact all 3 DK trees had viable builds for tanking. It made us unique that so many options were available to suit different fights and raid comp. needs, but can't have that. Oh no. The latest "fix" was making death strike essentially victory rush. Putting a different name on it doesn't change the fact it's still just victory rush for death knights. Blizz just needs to ignore the tiny percent of the community that needs to complain about EVERYTHING and breathe some fun into the game again.

[Kaylia]

You seemed to have missed my point, I was only talking about the whole Bloodlust example. EVERY class would have something unique about them besides class resources, something largely unique they could bring to each fight, even if sometimes it wasn't as good as another class for that fight. And like I said, make bosses that were horrible for DK's to be part of, not drop DK loot etc etc.

I don't think you grasp how difficult (ie: impossible) it is to balance powerful and unique ability that way, and make them not annoying.

If all 10 classes had something unique and good, people would always feel obliged to bring all 10 , and it would become incredibly annoying to create a raid (or just raid stack the best whenever its possible). It was already a pain before to find a single shaman...imagine trying to fill every room with every classes all the time.

[fantasticdan]

The DK ghoul auto-reraise thing was retarded as shit in pvp, there's a reason they removed it, and it's not like it was any good in pve anyway. It was fun for the novelty/broken factor for a while, but the game is way better off without it, and people playing the other 9 classes are glad it's gone.

Also, how dare they homogenize battle rez and bloodlust. What happened to the good old days of bringing 6-7 shamans to sunwell, or as many druids as you could to wotlk hard modes? It was so unique and interesting.

[FailureMidgard]

You seemed to have missed my point, I was only talking about the whole Bloodlust example. EVERY class would have something unique about them besides class resources, something largely unique they could bring to each fight, even if sometimes it wasn't as good as another class for that fight. And like I said, make bosses that were horrible for DK's to be part of, not drop DK loot etc etc.



The only time people would be sitting out is in a very hardcore raid setting and hardmodes where every bit of dps/hps counts..even if say hunters were better then mages on a fight, on normal it wouldnt matter at all. And most very hardcore guilds sit people on some fights anyways so what difference is there in all honesty?

And when im talking about uniqueness i'm talking more about fun gimmicky things and just over class variety. Not that each class has a super move or buff that equates to 2k dps but can't stack if another one of that class is in the raid. Shadow of death is a perfect example, it was fun to come back as a ghoul and beat on a boss and explode, or even being able to raise our allies as ghouls and have them beat on bosses THAT was fun..yet now it's just another battle rez, and we have no shadow of death. Maybe i'm just completely bent out of shape over the whole DK uniqueness being destroyed mid WoTLK to now.

Something needs to be done by Blizzard though because the game is quite frankly very stale for people who have been playing it for so long.

To each his own, but for everyone who agrees with you, plenty don't. I hated it when a DK felt the need to ghoul rez me, especially right before someone else was trying to crez, then bug the crez out. Then again, that was the only -real- use for the ability, to grief people's rezes, and it happened all the time out of combat on purpose. It was removed for a reason, and while you may have loved it, the majority of people seemed to be on the other side of the coin. I knew DKs who despised coming back as a ghoul as well, and there's a ton of people who basically hate any sort of vehicle system (aka, replace your abilities with something else - which is exactly what this dead, even if you were dead anyway).

Really, people will bitch to bitch, and no offense Guitarman, but you seem to be fitting in perfectly with your last line. The DK tree change was good in the minds of a lot of DKs also, who felt all their specs were watered down. You'd go through an entire tree and pick up something like 4 tank talents. Also, every class lost out on "options" with Cataclysm, being forced 31 pts deep before they can switch trees. I won't say I'm a big fan of that change, but I think it was a quick and simple fix to players getting really weird combinations that Blizzard didn't think of (UA arms/prot warriors), and it works. It allows for better balancing of the game as a whole, which is generally a bigger problem than "every class feels the same". I think you'd be in a very very small minority if you'd take these options and differences just to have classes/specs become 100% undesirable.

I'm curious if any people who are arguing for this actually played in Vanilla or pre-TBC. There was -1- tank class (warrior). There were 4 healer classes (dur). There were 5 dps classes (mage lock hunter rogue warrior). If you didn't fit into that setup, you most likely didn't do progression raiding at all, and were 2 tiers behind. There were a few exceptions, but for the most part, that was it. Allowing all these different specs to be viable was a wonderful thing, if you want to feel more undeady as a DK, go get some noggenfoggers.

[Meresgi]

The DK ghoul auto-reraise thing was retarded as shit in pvp, there's a reason they removed it, and it's not like it was any good in pve anyway. It was fun for the novelty/broken factor for a while, but the game is way better off without it, and people playing the other 9 classes are glad it's gone.

Also, how dare they homogenize battle rez and bloodlust. What happened to the good old days of bringing 6-7 shamans to sunwell, or as many druids as you could to wotlk hard modes? It was so unique and interesting.

Was only retarded in pvp....so fucking take it out of pvp and you're good? Seriously why is it so hard for Blizzard to make some things work in pve and others in pvp? I mean they do it all the time with some spells and others they just go "HERR DERR DELETE"

As for your other point, the fights were tweaked to NEED those classes, because they excelled at what they did to the point of pushing even the notion of bringing someone else to the fight out of your brain. Similiar to how some games, like Deus Ex, give you multiple paths depending on what you've chosen to do in the game, full on combat, stealth, blah blah, you could make fights where it would have multiple abilites and phases, and some classes would make 1 phase easier but others could make another phase easier. Honestly it's something that can't be done though with WoW, because it would require a complete reworking of the game so it'll never happen.

If all 10 classes had something unique and good, people would always feel obliged to bring all 10

Why? You could chose who you want to bring if every had unique abilities and knew how to use them to benefit the raid on fights. If they were all in line with each other strength wise, you wouldn't have to bring 1 of each, you could bring 3,3,3,1. I mean it's not like class stacking doesn't exist anymore, I would say it's about the same as WoTLK.

[fantasticdan]

Was only retarded in pvp....so fucking take it out of pvp and you're good? Seriously why is it so hard for Blizzard to make some things work in pve and others in pvp? I mean they do it all the time with some spells and others they just go "HERR DERR DELETE"

And it was useless in pve to begin with anyway, it did like no dps and blocked you from receiving a real battle rez. Maybe they could have kept it in similar to how locks self-soulstone works, IE: you have to put it up preemptively with your battle rez cooldown and doesn't work in arena/battlegrounds, but it would be even more worthless.

If you really want to roleplay as a ghoul, get some noggenfogger and move your character to moonguard.

As for your other point, the fights were tweaked to NEED those classes, because they excelled at what they did to the point of pushing even the notion of bringing someone else to the fight out of your brain.

Neither shamans or druids excelled at what they were primarily supposed to do; dps, healing, tanking, whatever. Blood lust and battle rez were just class specific, and stacked indefinitely in those times.

Why? You could chose who you want to bring if every had unique abilities and knew how to use them to benefit the raid on fights. If they were all in line with each other strength wise, you wouldn't have to bring 1 of each, you could bring 3,3,3,1. I mean it's not like class stacking doesn't exist anymore, I would say it's about the same as WoTLK.

Because big buffs/debuffs like that don't stack. If things like blood lust, curse of elements, kings etc. became class specific again, bringing anything other than 1 of each class to 10 man hardmodes would be retarded. They'd either have to be balanced around all 10 classes, and be basically impossible otherwise, or balanced around something less ideal, in which case the content would suddenly be way too easy with a one of each group.

[Correction]

I really wish you idiots would make a new thread to bicker endlessly about random things. This was meant to be an informative thread.

[Kaylia]

Why? You could chose who you want to bring if every had unique abilities and knew how to use them to benefit the raid on fights. If they were all in line with each other strength wise, you wouldn't have to bring 1 of each, you could bring 3,3,3,1. I mean it's not like class stacking doesn't exist anymore, I would say it's about the same as WoTLK.

Different abilities are always going to be unequal if they serve different purpose. You will undoubtedly end in a situation where one is a lot better than another, and doing the fight without it is impossible (ex: beat a burn phase without bloodlust)

If you make all of them serves a similar purpose and equally strong (bloodlust, +30%crit, +30% dmg increase), you basically end up with the same spell. If they stack, people will bring all 3 class, if they don't, it's just the same as it is right now, except slightly less balanced.



If every classes felt the same, maybe I would agree with you, but the only thing that got homogenized in cataclysm are buffs, and the situation is definitively an improvement over what it once was for raid building.