My mother has lost it! (Meat related question)

[Tyche]

Modern day Jobe.

[Niiro]

But if we don't worship god then we have nothing to worry about right? No point to be made to Satan by giving someone who isn't pious cancer.

[Mazmaz]

>mfw people have babies at 40.

[Darus Grey]

Vegetarianism is dumb.

Humans are meant to eat meat(I'm lumping in dairy when I say meat); period. The biggest moment in human history is when we switched from being herbivores to omnivores; because the fats and proteins in meat is what significantly enhanced our brain capacity and the muscle capacity in our bodies; we grew in size tremendously and got significantly smarter. Ever since we've become an agrarian society we've started getting smaller(until recent medicine and food availability reversed this trend for a different set of reasons); and getting dumber.

People on high fatty diets live longer("mediterranian" diet), have higher cognitive function(as long as fat consumption isn't excessive), and less risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes; and the easiest way to do that is by eating some level of meat. They're right that it is possible to get substitutes for meat; but they're wrong in believing that they're practical... I know this one from experience; well I do a significant amount of baking with flax meal and almond flour for instance, the reality is that eating these foods in the amounts required to be a high performing male will make you sick; you can't eat a whole loaf of almond bread and not regret it the next day trust me ;0

Vegetarian diets almost never have enough fat in them; and to their own detriment many vegetarians actively avoid fats. Any competent doctor or biologist will tell you how bad that is. Ultimately a healthy human diet should be around 40/30/30 fat/protein/carb and the easiest way to do that is with meat(but not impossible as a vegetarian; just impractical, and most vegetarians are idiots who eat 10/10/80 diets because that is what their food culture espouses as "healthy" when it is in fact very damaging).

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller33.1.html among many others...

You can also watch the documentary "Fat Head" for a humourful(though not entirely accurate) take on the subject of human diet.

[Mojo]

I spent about a month researching organic foods for a paper I wrote, although it was mostly in relation to organically grown foods, not organic meat or dairy. One thing that's already been touched on a little bit is how difficult risk assessment is for carcinogenic substances. From what I remember, some methods of determining whether a substance is carcinogenic will actually result in most things being labelled as such. The natural pesticides in fruit (which are about 5~15% weight of the fruit themselves) are considered carcinogenic. Obviously much less so than something like asbestos, but I think you might get the point. I'll post more stuff later when I have some time.

[Demosthenes11]

Vegetarianism is dumb.

Humans are meant to eat meat(I'm lumping in dairy when I say meat); period. The biggest moment in human history is when we switched from being herbivores to omnivores; because the fats and proteins in meat is what significantly enhanced our brain capacity and the muscle capacity in our bodies; we grew in size tremendously and got significantly smarter. Ever since we've become an agrarian society we've started getting smaller(until recent medicine and food availability reversed this trend for a different set of reasons); and getting dumber.

People on high fatty diets live longer("mediterranian" diet), have higher cognitive function(as long as fat consumption isn't excessive), and less risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes; and the easiest way to do that is by eating some level of meat. They're right that it is possible to get substitutes for meat; but they're wrong in believing that they're practical... I know this one from experience; well I do a significant amount of baking with flax meal and almond flour for instance, the reality is that eating these foods in the amounts required to be a high performing male will make you sick; you can't eat a whole loaf of almond bread and not regret it the next day trust me ;0

Vegetarian diets almost never have enough fat in them; and to their own detriment many vegetarians actively avoid fats. Any competent doctor or biologist will tell you how bad that is. Ultimately a healthy human diet should be around 40/30/30 fat/protein/carb and the easiest way to do that is with meat(but not impossible as a vegetarian; just impractical, and most vegetarians are idiots who eat 10/10/80 diets because that is what their food culture espouses as "healthy" when it is in fact very damaging).

http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller33.1.html

((
that's fine and all, but considering how manipulated 80+% of the meat is in this country (the world really), it's not a bad lifestyle choice. And anecdotal evidence of "well most vegetarians eat only cucumbers!!!" makes your argument bad. How do you know what most vegetarians eat? The one in my family makes very good choices; all vegetarians must therefore make good choices!

[Darus Grey]

I don't think it's disingenuous to say that the vast majority of people don't have fuck all a clue about biology and proper human nutrition; and that includes vegetarians. The difference is the nature of vegetarianism makes this gap in knowledge more dangerous to their health; because they're eating a very extreme diet to begin with.

Combined with the simple fact that a very informed person would probably not choose vegetarianism to begin with(imho).

I don't disagree that our meat is heavily manipulated; but unless someone can show very damning evidence otherwise, the offset of those hormones vs. the severe risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes(two of our biggest killers) from a very high in carb diet; seems minimal(or at least, is much the lesser of two poisons).

[Demosthenes11]

you are so full of gross generalizations. extreme diet? lol.

you make it sound like every vegetarian dies of CV disease / diabetes. Do you even have any data to support that claim at all?

[Demosthenes11]

This would seem to contradict what you say completely

http://www.ajcn.org/content/78/3/610S.full

[Darus Grey]

It is an extreme diet, if you think otherwise you are wrong.

Both the works I cited explain the link between high carb intake and CV/diabetes; among countless others you can google.

You're also missing the simple fact that I already explained that it is possible to eat a healthy vegetarian diet; but highly impractical, and since most people don't know what they're doing...they won't make the right choices. The reality is that most vegetarian diets are high carb diets by their nature; and if I really need to explain to you why a diet that is essentially mostly sugar...is linked to diabetes and CV...why are we even discussing it?

Frankly you're the one who is grossly over-exaggerating.

Also your link only claims what I've been saying... a PROPER vegetarian diet is low risk. Most aren't PROPER...which is what I'm saying. You also realize that that paper didn't form a definitive conclusion right? Cause you know...I actually just read it(and you probably didn't, just googled it for a quick gotcha).

[Demosthenes11]

and that's great anecdotal evidence. but saying that

a) a huge majority of vegetarians are making really poor choices
b) eating meat products full of shit is better than eliminating them

without any kind of evidence or data is irresponsible. I get that's what your gut tells you, but good arguments and facts don't come from your gut. saying someone is dumb for foregoing meat without that confirmation is dumb

[Darus Grey]

TBH I won't disagree; because you're right that ultimately we don't know the long-term impact of the meat. We also don't know the long-term impact of vegetarianism on humans either; but biological principles tell us that they are *probably* bad.

Would you agree that a diet that includes healthier meats is responsible then? Cause ultimately all I'm trying to say is that meat is an important part of human dietary needs(and it is). Though the contamination of the supply's effect in offsetting that is up in the air(though as you point out; no one knows that for sure).

That said I don't think it's irresponsible. Since we have no conclusive evidence to support vegetarianism as a practical alternative; it's a more logical choice to stay the course with what we know works versus what we think could work; especially with somewhat known downsides to the alternative vs unknown downsides.

[chiyio]

Darus Grey sounds fucking retarded. How many people with a "proper" non-vegetarian diet do you know. most people's diet is shit, I doubt the percentage of vegetarians with a bad diet is any higher than meat eaters.

[Kerberoz]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

[pogejr]

Darus Grey sounds fucking retarded. How many people with a "proper" non-vegetarian diet do you know. most people's diet is shit, I doubt the percentage of vegetarians with a bad diet is any higher than meat eaters.

Doesn't that kinda prove his point. If most people have a non-proper diet wouldn't vegetarians fit into that category?
And his arguments are the best I see in a lot of places.

[chiyio]

.... because you can just lump all vegetarians into the group of people with a bad diet?? what is wrong with you, heh.

[Darus Grey]

.... because you can just lump all vegetarians into the group of people with a bad diet?? what is wrong with you, heh.

That is the point, most vegetarians are as uninformed as non-vegetarians. We agree on that point.

Maybe I'm being presumptive; but I get the impression you feel that a vegetarian diet is healthier by default(which is why you *seem* to feel that they deserve more credit for their health), and that is simply not the case.

[pogejr]

.... because you can just lump all vegetarians into the group of people with a bad diet?? what is wrong with you, heh.

I'm sorry, I don't know if this is sarcasm or not.

[Demosthenes11]

I firmly believe a well-balanced vegetarian diet would be 100% more healthy than a well-balanced meat diet today, no question.

significantly less tasty, though

[Darus Grey]

I firmly believe a well-balanced vegetarian diet would be 100% more healthy than a well-balanced meat diet today, no question.

significantly less tasty, though

You're probably correct for the general population.

Though for men in particular there is an issue with the performance gap of a vegetarian diet; if you're actually an active male it is incredibly hard to eat enough calories in the correct proportions to offset the sickness you'll experience from a fiber overload. Which is a terrible thing to experience; hah