My mother has lost it! (Meat related question)

[Silenka]

They are full of living enyzmes or something idk my mom went on about this shit for fucking ever, she never managed to brainwash me into her crazy 'everything is bad for you, only eat things that taste like cardboard or nothing' philosophy, but I do feel better eating less meat.

[Caiyuo]

Not all, but most vegetarians choose to be so based on idiotic ethic principles that have nothing to do with personal health.

^^^^^^

Well, I can't say for most, but it seems incredibly common that switching to a vegetarian diet is led by ideology or a general assumption of seeming "healthier" without really having any specifics and then just figuring what you can eat that you'll actually want ahead of what you might need to eat.

It seems like in both Darus' case and the OP's that the arguments against them are sort-of missing the mark. In the latter case, while arguing vegetarian diets aren't stupid and can be effective, he seems more worried specifically about the diet she's being sold on because it's a giant product line she both can't afford and reeks of bullshit. He's not even fighting the notion that her being vegetarian is a bad thing and has said so a few times already.

From the information shared here it seems like if hormones and what mass production is doing to meat are the greatest concerns, than attempting to find a co-op, a farmer's market or connecting with a local farmer to deal with directly would be the best of both worlds.

[zoobernut]

From the information shared here it seems like if hormones and what mass production is doing to meat are the greatest concerns, than attempting to find a co-op, a farmer's market or connecting with a local farmer to deal with directly would be the best of both worlds.

I think this is the best idea.

[EternityEnd]

They were all used "correctly" since one of the "proper"(lol) usages of a semi-colon is to distinguish a pause that's greater than a comma, shorter than an ellipse, and doesn't break like a period. I generally use a semi-colon where most people on the internet would put an ellipse.

I also like-to hyphenate things un-necessarily.

Semicolons have two main uses: (1) to connect two very closely related independent clauses that don't feature a coordinating conjunction (and, but, so, etc), and (2) to separate fragments of a list with three or more parts, when each part has a comma (Random Bitch is planning on going to London, England; Berlin, Germany; and Paris, France).

Several times you used a semicolon: to separate a dependent clause from an independent clause (incorrect), to separate a complete sentence from a single non-word ("hah," also incorrect), or where a comma would have been more conducive to the clarity of your point.

P.S. Most people on the internet use an "ellipse" (the word you're looking for is ellipsis; plural ellipses) incorrectly. <3

[Mojo]

Silenka~

Enzymes are catalytic proteins. They're present in all forms of life. Whatever your mom is espousing sounds like a bad interpretation of something else (i.e. it's pseudo-science.) If you truly felt worse eating meat, you were either eating too much at a time (like lactose, there's only so much protein we can digest at a time) or have some kind of deficiency, otherwise it's probably just placebo. I was a vegetarian for a few years (admittedly it was a fad diet for me.) I never noticed any difference in how I felt. That's not to say there isn't merit to being vegetarian. Sustainability and animal welfare are too great reasons, if you care about things like that.

OP - If you're concerned I would take caution in listening to anybody who sounds like they've got it all figured out. The human body is immensely complicated. Long term effects from digesting foods that are only slightly different in composition are difficult to evaluate. Perhaps consider this.

rBST - The hormone used to increase milk production in cows. It tends to have some adverse effects on the cows, although the milk that is produced is nearly identical in composition. There are elevated levels of IGFs (a type of protein) in the milk. There have been associations between IGF levels in humans and types of cancer. It's crucial to note that these studies were based on serum levels of IGF (meaning IGF found inside the human body, not the IGF that we consume.) Consumed IGF is actually denatured (digested) in your stomach and intestine, so consumption of IGF won't increase your IGF serum levels. So any claim that milk from cows treated with rBST is somehow carcinogenic isn't rooted in real science.

Antibiotics - These are given to cows regularly regardless of whether they are being treated with hormones (correct me if I'm wrong.) It is a preventative measure to ward off mastitis and perhaps other infectious diseases. The concern is that this practice will create antibiotic resistant diseases that can be harmful to humans and other types of life. There have been some studies that suggest that this concern is valid (findings of bacterial strains believed to originate on farms), although I'm not sure if there is enough data and research on the issue to put the risk into perspective.

Growth Hormones - These are given to cattle to aid in their muscle development and other such things (basically what you would imagine a growth hormone to do.) There are measurable differences in hormone residues in beef from cattle treated with and without hormones. So it is showing up in the meat, but again, risk assessment is important. These are elevated levels of something that was there before (I think the WHO actually deems them as so small that they're indistinguishable.) Also, consider that every day the human body produces somewhere in the range of 30,000~40,000 times the amount of hormones you would find in a hamburger. What really matters though is the bottom line (does consuming those amounts affect human health.) There have been assertions that those hormones might effect pubescence and other things in humans consuming them, although there haven't been any studies that have found a correlation, so it's mostly factless conjecture.

Anyways, I'm not proclaiming myself to be some kind of expert on the matter, I'm simply an advocate of reason and skepticism. This is what I remember after researching organic food and such things for somewhere around a month. I avoid discussions like this IRL because I become subtly disturbed on a deep level when I encounter people espousing a bunch of pseudo-science bullshit that they might have heard on Oprah or whatever. It depresses me when I encounter people that are so casually willing to toss aside scientific innovation and decades of agricultural advancement in lieu of fashion.

[Mizango]

They were all used "correctly" since one of the "proper"(lol) usages of a semi-colon is to distinguish a pause that's greater than a comma, shorter than an ellipse, and doesn't break like a period. I generally use a semi-colon where most people on the internet would put an ellipse.

I also like-to hyphenate things un-necessarily.

This right here.... is why I love, you.

[Kaslo]

Anyways, I'm not proclaiming myself to be some kind of expert on the matter, I'm simply an advocate of reason and skepticism. This is what I remember after researching organic food and such things for somewhere around a month. I avoid discussions like this IRL because I become subtly disturbed on a deep level when I encounter people espousing a bunch of pseudo-science bullshit that they might have heard on Oprah or whatever. It depresses me when I encounter people that are so casually willing to toss aside scientific innovation and decades of agricultural advancement in lieu of fashion.

This is what concerns me about society as a whole. I think it has an effect on politics because with 24-hour news networks dwelling on stupid things, or misreporting, it has mislead the large portion of people who believe everything they hear on TV.

[Kohan]

They were all used "correctly" since one of the "proper"(lol) usages of a semi-colon is to distinguish a pause that's greater than a comma, shorter than an ellipse, and doesn't break like a period. I generally use a semi-colon where most people on the internet would put an ellipse.

I also like-to hyphenate things un-necessarily.

As someone who normally enjoys your posts, I have to say that this is one of the most disappointing ones I've read that you've made—not to mention how your earlier contributions to this discussion were, in general, mediocre. You were already called out on your punctuation abuse, and then you exacerbated it by misusing quotations and spelling "ellipsis" incorrectly. Shameful.

P.S.: They're right, you're wrong. Sometimes, the key to being a masterful contributor is bowing out when you're beaten. Also, I personally suggest the usage of em dashes to remedy your semicolon abuse—it won't tarnish your sophistication so terribly.

[Darus Grey]

Semicolons have two main uses: (1) to connect two very closely related independent clauses that don't feature a coordinating conjunction (and, but, so, etc), and (2) to separate fragments of a list with three or more parts, when each part has a comma (Random Bitch is planning on going to London, England; Berlin, Germany; and Paris, France).

Several times you used a semicolon: to separate a dependent clause from an independent clause (incorrect), to separate a complete sentence from a single non-word ("hah," also incorrect), or where a comma would have been more conducive to the clarity of your point.

P.S. Most people on the internet use an "ellipse" (the word you're looking for is ellipsis; plural ellipses) incorrectly. <3

Good thing there's no central authority on English and all the rules are made up bullshit anyways that have no relevance to modern society. Thus any rules I quote are as reliable as yours; and since I'm going there, my spelling of Ellipse is the right one; because I-said-so.

And Kohan, I am disappoint.

[Caiyuo]

the doctor's in motherfuckers

[Furtwangler]

Yea that's what I'm trying to debunk; not the fact that vegetarianism is bad, but this shit that she's pushing is. Furthermore, she's doing what you described Mojo which is what's bothering me. It's just this complete bullshit that she's hearing from her friend and this website.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[Kohan]

Good thing there's no central authority on English and all the rules are made up bullshit anyways that have no relevance to modern society. Thus any rules I quote are as reliable as yours; and since I'm going there, my spelling of Ellipse is the right one; because I-said-so.

And Kohan, I am disappoint.

If this was meant to be trolling, it's piss-awful, as it's a case where you're demonstrating inexcusable idiocy rather than wittily getting under someone's skin. You're trying to present an intelligent argument, and you're undermining yourself by simultaneously singing, "English is a magical language without rules, and I can do whatever I'd like!"; I've dealt with that retarded-ass bullshit in my professional life, and it's shamefully ignorant.

Many of the rules of English are, in fact, clarified in numerous style books that agree with one another; only rarely do they dissent, meaning that we do have a firm plethora of regulations to pull from. Furthermore, the consensus on semicolons and ellipses are some of the strongest, though the latter's intended usage has weakened due to—unsurprisingly—how it's been rampantly abused on the internet.

One of my regularly contracted jobs is copy-editing. I have schooled countless motherfuckers on how you write in the Goddamn English language. Do not take me to task, son.

[zoobernut]

Yea that's what I'm trying to debunk; not the fact that vegetarianism is bad, but this shit that she's pushing is. Furthermore, she's doing what you described Mojo which is what's bothering me. It's just this complete bullshit that she's hearing from her friend and this website.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I don't see how she is "pushing" anything. She decided to do something for her diet and it is well within her right to decide what food to make at home and what to teach her daughter about nutrition. At only 13 years old your sister doesn't exactly have a lot of food independence yet. When she gets older she can decide for herself what she wants to eat and how she wants her diet to be. In the meantime you are making your mother out to be villainous when she is simply deciding what she thinks is the best thing to do for her family that still lives at home. Is she trying to force you to eat the same (assuming you have moved out)? If not then you really don't have anything to say unless she starts endangering your sister in some way which it doesn't sound like she is doing at all right now. You have the right to disagree with it but don't make it out like something malicious because it really isn't at least i the capacity that you are describing it.

[Furtwangler]

I don't see how she is "pushing" anything. She decided to do something for her diet and it is well within her right to decide what food to make at home and what to teach her daughter about nutrition. At only 13 years old your sister doesn't exactly have a lot of food independence yet. When she gets older she can decide for herself what she wants to eat and how she wants her diet to be. In the meantime you are making your mother out to be villainous when she is simply deciding what she thinks is the best thing to do for her family that still lives at home. Is she trying to force you to eat the same (assuming you have moved out)? If not then you really don't have anything to say unless she starts endangering your sister in some way which it doesn't sound like she is doing at all right now. You have the right to disagree with it but don't make it out like something malicious because it really isn't at least i the capacity that you are describing it.

so let me clarify on that a bit. I've been moved out for 3 years. My mom dad and sister live together. my mom works full time (dad is disabled so gets some ssi etc), and they live paycheck to paycheck. The lady at her church basically charges ppl 40 bucks to go to this session where they learn about all the awesome things about this hallelujah diet, and they have to buy all these supplements and drinks and special flour sugar etc that's all natural/raw/etc. Should mention they are always very tight on money and shes now found some kind of cash flow out of the households already small paycheck to afford all these supplements and ingredients etc from this website that are a giant scam.

she refuses to buy meat milk or anything else for the house, which is a problem because my dad doesn't really have the money to go grocery shopping (he pays a lot of the bills with his monthly ssi check). when my sister says i want to eat a hamburger, or i want milk, and voices her opinions on why she doesn't like this, she gets grounded and yelled at. So to me, she's kinda forcing this on the household. I haven't had a chance to actually talk to her about this but from what I've seen and been told by my dad and sister, if anyone in the church says something, she's inclined to believe it, and I'm not sure if I have much of a foothold even with papers and sources to change her mind :/

[Darus Grey]

Please, prescriptivists like you are easy pickings.

I'm going to end this in one undeniable sentence. All your common rules all trace back to a small set of people who vested themselves with the false authority and then oppressed the general populace into believing them(and they don't actually believe them, hence why the general population doesn't actually follow them).

You even mention the key word here Style, that's all those "rules" are, style guidelines. You telling people how to use a semi-colon is no different than me telling you what to wear this week. Even ignoring that, style to what? Only SAE(Standard American English), the LEAST used form of English. So when you're sitting around correcting people on the internet do you even stop to think what dialect of English they're using? Of course you don't; because like most prescriptivists you have this inbred sense of English justice brainwashed into you by your peers who would otherwise have to admit that they're wrong. Since I write in a different dialect and style of English than you; who the fuck are you to tell me what is right and wrong. You just come in here all ignorant of the language you claim to champion and linguistically discriminate against people so you can get a small power-trip off it. Pathetic.

The ultimate irony is that in order to "correct" someone, you have to understand what they intended to say. Do you understand that? you have to understand them!, that means a successful linguistic transaction has taken place. Since you clearly understood them, what is the purpose of the correction at that point? To belittle them, that's what. Correcting someone's grammar is little more than being a douchebag.

Seriously, lol@this shit. Stylists who pretend they know fuck all about language.

And nothing I say regarding this is trolling, people like you are the religious fanatics to the real language scientists like myself. Think about how you'll respond to this for a moment, at no point in your argument can you do anything but refer to one of your style manuals; you can never explain the WHY, it's like the bible to people like you.

[Fhqwghads]

I couldn't give a shit less about meat having hormones and other bullshit in it. Factories release carcinogens, vehicles release carcinogens, the sun bombards your ass with cancer causing rays, even natural fucking hippie food will still have some level of carcinogens in it. You can't breathe, eat, drink, go outside, or blink without being exposed to something that causes cancer. What the fuck these jackass plant-eating pussies get their pink panties in a twist over with regard to eating store bought meat is beyond me. Talk about ignorant. You'll still die of cancer or a heart attack, so eat whatever the fuck you want.

http://img.anongallery.org/img/6/2/d..._it_turtle.jpg

[Silenka]

Enzymes are catalytic proteins. They're present in all forms of life. Whatever your mom is espousing sounds like a bad interpretation of something else (i.e. it's pseudo-science.)

Yeah, I know, I was using it as a sarcastic example of the kinds of things my mother has been trying to shove down my throat for years. I really don't trust food science on the whole: first it was the food pyramid, which was dead wrong, then it was 'use chemically-created sugar substitutes, they will keep you from getting fat/diabetes' and that's been proven wrong (or has it?), things are always being proven and then disproven to be good/better for you. I don't like that.

We clearly still don't understand what is actually good for our bodies so it's basically a crapshoot. Is high fructose corn syrup really as terrible as some people have been claiming lately? There are so many fads and poorly done/outright fake studies related to diet that it's impossible to find a grain of truth about food at all. Scientists keep finding faults in 'facts' we know about food. I desperately want to have the choice to stop eating things that might be killing me (like chemicals used to make formaldehyde in Kellogs' cereals or HFCS) but if science lacks the capacity to output reliable, constant and true information about such things, I can't make that decision, I can only guess. That said, I have been trying to avoid foods with HFCS when I can, but everything is made with it (I can't even find any bagels that don't use it) and I'm not truly convinced it's even that bad compared to things that are used in place of it. HFCS is just one example, though; there are plenty of other examples. In the end, honestly, as others have said, everything kills you, so I'm not overly concerned about it - just doing what I can to treat my body a little better, if possible.

As for the placebo argument, cutting down on meat has me eating WAY more fruits & veggies, which I think is what I was getting at when I said eating less meat makes me feel better - it's a natural followup to what happens when I cut meat largely out of my diet. Fruits and veggies, at least, I will believe are good for you... aside from the pesticides and waxes, of course.

[zoobernut]

so let me clarify on that a bit. I've been moved out for 3 years. My mom dad and sister live together. my mom works full time (dad is disabled so gets some ssi etc), and they live paycheck to paycheck. The lady at her church basically charges ppl 40 bucks to go to this session where they learn about all the awesome things about this hallelujah diet, and they have to buy all these supplements and drinks and special flour sugar etc that's all natural/raw/etc. Should mention they are always very tight on money and shes now found some kind of cash flow out of the households already small paycheck to afford all these supplements and ingredients etc from this website that are a giant scam.

she refuses to buy meat milk or anything else for the house, which is a problem because my dad doesn't really have the money to go grocery shopping (he pays a lot of the bills with his monthly ssi check). when my sister says i want to eat a hamburger, or i want milk, and voices her opinions on why she doesn't like this, she gets grounded and yelled at. So to me, she's kinda forcing this on the household. I haven't had a chance to actually talk to her about this but from what I've seen and been told by my dad and sister, if anyone in the church says something, she's inclined to believe it, and I'm not sure if I have much of a foothold even with papers and sources to change her mind :/

I agree with you that it is a bad idea for them to live outside of their means but everything else you have mentioned is just part of a household dynamic and really not any of your business at this point. Like I said as soon as your sister begins buying food and cooking for herself she can eat whatever/however she wants until then it is up to your mom even if your sister disagrees. And your sister chooses to voice her disagreement which is met with punishment. Maybe the punishment is a bit harsh but if your mom chooses to buy certain foods and eat certain things then that is her prerogative regardless of if it came from a scam or not. When someone does all the grocery shopping and all the food preparation it is not forcing anything on the household it is making a decision.

As soon as it becomes actually abusive towards your sister then you can step in, until then I don't think you have any grounds to stand on and your mom, dad, and sister need to work it out between themselves.

Just in case you weren't clear this is all completely separate from the source of her motivations, whether or not she is right in her concerns about hormones etc. or whether or not she is dumb for believing what she is believing.

[Mojo]

Yeah, I know, I was using it as a sarcastic example of the kinds of things my mother has been trying to shove down my throat for years. I really don't trust food science on the whole: first it was the food pyramid, which was dead wrong, then it was 'use chemically-created sugar substitutes, they will keep you from getting fat/diabetes' and that's been proven wrong (or has it?), things are always being proven and then disproven to be good/better for you. I don't like that.

We clearly still don't understand what is actually good for our bodies so it's basically a crapshoot. Is high fructose corn syrup really as terrible as some people have been claiming lately? There are so many fads and poorly done/outright fake studies related to diet that it's impossible to find a grain of truth about food at all. Scientists keep finding faults in 'facts' we know about food. I desperately want to have the choice to stop eating things that might be killing me (like chemicals used to make formaldehyde in Kellogs' cereals or HFCS) but if science lacks the capacity to output reliable, constant and true information about such things, I can't make that decision, I can only guess. That said, I have been trying to avoid foods with HFCS when I can, but everything is made with it (I can't even find any bagels that don't use it) and I'm not truly convinced it's even that bad compared to things that are used in place of it. HFCS is just one example, though; there are plenty of other examples. In the end, honestly, as others have said, everything kills you, so I'm not overly concerned about it - just doing what I can to treat my body a little better, if possible.

As for the placebo argument, cutting down on meat has me eating WAY more fruits & veggies, which I think is what I was getting at when I said eating less meat makes me feel better - it's a natural followup to what happens when I cut meat largely out of my diet. Fruits and veggies, at least, I will believe are good for you... aside from the pesticides and waxes, of course.

I'm definitely in concordance in that there is a shakiness in regards to nutritional science, although I would assert that how the media presents science and how the individual perceives it is more responsible for the rifraff we observe in our culture.

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/a.../S26/91/22K07/

This study, for instance, is quite relevant to what you brought up. It's a rat study on HFCS and obesity. The page I linked you to isn't the study, however, it's a journalistic report on the study. You can find the actual study here.

If you take the journalistic report at face value, it's easy to come to the conclusion that consumption of HFCS will result in larger weight gains vs cane sugar. A look over the actual study might yield a different conclusion.

Table 1. Summary of experiments, diets and final body weight.

Experiment	Diet				End point body weight (g)
Experiment 1
Males: 8 weeks
	1. 24-h HFCS + ad libitum chow		470 ± 7
	2. 12-h HFCS + ad libitum chow		502 ± 11*
	3. 12-h sucrose + ad libitum chow	477 ± 9
	4. Ad libitum chow			462 ± 12
Experiment 2
Males: 6 months
	1. 24-h HFCS + ad libitum chow		767 ± 24*
	2. 12-h HFCS + ad libitum chow		718 ± 28*
	3. Ad libitum chow			616 ± 36
Experiment 2
Females: 7 months
	1. 24-h HFCS + ad libitum chow		355 ± 12*
	2. 12-h HFCS + 12-h chow		323 ± 9
	3. 12-h sucrose + 12-h chow		333 ± 10
	4. Ad libitum chow			328 ± 10

* Signifies statistical difference when compared to chow-fed control groups, p < 0.05.

This is a summary of their results. The first thing I noticed when reviewing this was that they were fed ad libitum (which means that they were allowed to eat all they wanted.) So already you can probably see a problem here. The obesity trends in the study reflect not only a difference in sugar types, but a poor lifestyle. It's not a study about which rat is fat and which rat isn't, it's a study about which rat is the fattest. The other experiments done in which the rats were dieted (non ad libitum) show that there is no significant difference between HFCS and sucrose. There are also trends that you would expect to see, like a statistical increase in weight on the 8 week 24-h HFCS group, that aren't simply aren't there. It raises unanswered questions. At best, you can only conclude that there likely is some kind of correlation between HFCS and obesity, but that it's probably always going to be tied to a poor diet and lifestyle. More studies need to be done to broaden the understanding of why and how it can affect us, a single rat study simply isn't enough.

You don't get any of this with the journalistic report though. You get HFCS makes you fatter than cane sugar. It's irresponsible journalism coupled with a lack of understanding science. There are many other HFCS vs sucrose studies out there, they generally indicate that under the conditions of the study, there is no difference between HFCS and sucrose, but any single study is limited in capacity in regards to the human body.

It gets worse if you even try to talk to somebody about it. Although anecdotal, I find that most people don't even know what the difference between HFCS and sucrose is, yet the same people are often critical of HFCS. How can someone legitimately be critical about something they don't understand even at a basic level? For these reasons conversations regarding nutritional science often involve discord and not discourse.

Zoobs - Why discourage the adoption of facts and reason to guide decision making? You say it's not his business, but are we not even allowed to be critical of our own family members in this way?

[Caiyuo]

Zoobs - Why discourage the adoption of facts and reason to guide decision making? You say it's not his business, but are we not even allowed to be critical of our own family members in this way?

I agree, of all the people that you'd want to prevent from potentially making a mistake regarding their health and the health of people that depend on them, I'd think your family members would be the first.