My mother has lost it! (Meat related question)

[Demosthenes11]

OP doesn't know shit about what he is talking about, so I really don't think any argument he has will be effective. came in here saying vegetarian diets are bad for you, knew dick about the program, and does not seem to be an effective communicator.

will be herp vs. derp

[Mojo]

To be honest, I feel that even if you are very educated on the matter, 90% of the time people won't listen to you anyways.

[Silenka]

HFCS study

As far as I understand it, HFCS (and other sweeteners, no matter the type) cause the body to produce insulin, which is no different from cane sugar. But HFCS, unlike the others, is metabolized in the liver. That's what I've read anyway, I don't know if it's true or what it means even if it is. I, like many others, am nearly completely clueless as to whether or not HFCS even poses a health risk. I drink about 1 can of soda a day because I can't stop drinking it even though it's terribad (mainly because of the tooth and bone decay) and that's basically all HFCS (cane sugar ones are too expensive/not available and don't hold carbonation as well in most cases anyway). So if HFCS turns out to be the bane of existence, well, tough luck for me. It's just a matter of picking your poison nowadays, though, there's artificial/risky stuff in everything.

That study and others like it is what I was talking about, but it's also the fault of the press and reader perception, like you said. If only the tests were more thorough; if only the media was better at interpretation. I like how the corn industry has been running ads promoting corn syrup since so many people are boycotting the use of it, they must be losing millions of dollars on the anti-corn syrup fad. If only food wasn't so delicious and addicting to the brain, we'd only have to eat what fueled our bodies and probably have one or two tried and true things to eat. Choice is often a monster.

[Furtwangler]

I feel like the benefit of doing that greatly outweighs the cost.. plus.. it's meat... how can you not eat it?!(read: sarcasm here, if you're vegetarian and healthy about it all the more power to you)

OP doesn't know shit about what he is talking about, so I really don't think any argument he has will be effective. came in here saying vegetarian diets are bad for you, knew dick about the program, and does not seem to be an effective communicator.

will be herp vs. derp

I even specifically said

Is there some kind of sources anyone knows of that can show how bullshit this is? or is it really that big of a deal? I'm not too educated on the subject

The fuck are you on? Do you know anything either? You come in here already angry because someone proposes the way his mother is trying to go vegan/vegetarian is not a healthy route, and then get start spewing random shit like that, which is completely out of your ass. Get off your high horse like you somehow have all the answers on a matter that no one has been able to prove one way or the other.

[Demosthenes11]

guys my mom is doing super horrible things and i need her to stop now from ruining her life. i dont actually no anything tho so can anyone help?

[Furtwangler]

A+ Trolling, I do say.

[Mojo]

As far as I understand it, HFCS (and other sweeteners, no matter the type) cause the body to produce insulin, which is no different from cane sugar. But HFCS, unlike the others, is metabolized in the liver. That's what I've read anyway, I don't know if it's true or what it means even if it is. I, like many others, am nearly completely clueless as to whether or not HFCS even poses a health risk. I drink about 1 can of soda a day because I can't stop drinking it even though it's terribad (mainly because of the tooth and bone decay) and that's basically all HFCS (cane sugar ones are too expensive/not available and don't hold carbonation as well in most cases anyway). So if HFCS turns out to be the bane of existence, well, tough luck for me. It's just a matter of picking your poison nowadays, though, there's artificial/risky stuff in everything.

That study and others like it is what I was talking about, but it's also the fault of the press and reader perception, like you said. If only the tests were more thorough; if only the media was better at interpretation. I like how the corn industry has been running ads promoting corn syrup since so many people are boycotting the use of it, they must be losing millions of dollars on the anti-corn syrup fad. If only food wasn't so delicious and addicting to the brain, we'd only have to eat what fueled our bodies and probably have one or two tried and true things to eat. Choice is often a monster.

Some information for you~

Cane sugar or table sugar is 99% sucrose. Sucrose a disaccharide (a combination of two monosaccharides.) More specifically, it's made up of one unit of glucose and one unit of fructose. When you ingest sucrose, it's broken down into its constituents by an enzyme in your stomach. So you're essentially getting a 50/50 mixture of sucrose and glucose when you eat cane sugar.

HFCS starts as corn starch. This is refined into corn syrup. Corn syrup contains mostly glucose, so to better mimic the properties of sucrose, it's processed using some enzymes to convert some of the glucose into fructose. The end result, HFCS, generally comes in two varieties. HFCS55 (containing 55% fructose and 42% glucose) and HFCS42 (containing 42% fructose and 53% glucose.) The other 3~5% are other types of sugars, I think.

There has been conjecture on the differences in how sucrose and glucose is metabolized and how that correlates to obesity and fatty liver disease. It's generally accepted that glucose initiates an insulin response while fructose doesn't, but that's where the cold hard facts end. Some think that the lack of insulin response with fructose will result in no decrease in appetite, causing you to eat more. Again though, it's conjecture, and conjecture needs data to back it up (remember that HFCS also contains glucose.) Studies done with soda (sucrose and HFCS55) consumption resulted in no observed metabolic differences, so take that as you may.

There are correlation studies done with high consumption of sugar and fatty liver disease, but generally the studies all show that excess consumption of any sugar will produce that result. The keyword is excess, which, to be honest, is the real root of any sugar related health problem.

[zoobernut]

Zoobs - Why discourage the adoption of facts and reason to guide decision making? You say it's not his business, but are we not even allowed to be critical of our own family members in this way?

If you read my posts again I never say that we cannot be critical. I say that ultimately it is her decision. I also say that the OP is going nuts and out of his way to make this whole thing seem very malicious which it is not. I am also pointing out to the OP that he can talk to his mom if he wants but will ultimately have to let go. I also said that intervention will become only necessary when she is doing something that is actually harmful to her family. It is good to be critical but the OP has gone off the deep end in my opinion and feels like he has to save his family when this whole thing isn't really that big of a deal (yet). I also do think that when you grow up and you move out of your house you do have a little bit less say in how that household is run. You can give your input but you can't force your family to listen to your input.

[Furtwangler]

I'm just trying to get information, I'm not sure what constitutes going off the deep end.. If everyone came in here and was like nope that seems like a good idea, I'd be open to that - hence asking other people for input.

[MaachaQ]

Silenka~

Enzymes are catalytic proteins. They're present in all forms of life. Whatever your mom is espousing sounds like a bad interpretation of something else (i.e. it's pseudo-science.) If you truly felt worse eating meat, you were either eating too much at a time (like lactose, there's only so much protein we can digest at a time) or have some kind of deficiency, otherwise it's probably just placebo. I was a vegetarian for a few years (admittedly it was a fad diet for me.) I never noticed any difference in how I felt. That's not to say there isn't merit to being vegetarian. Sustainability and animal welfare are too great reasons, if you care about things like that.

OP - If you're concerned I would take caution in listening to anybody who sounds like they've got it all figured out. The human body is immensely complicated. Long term effects from digesting foods that are only slightly different in composition are difficult to evaluate. Perhaps consider this.

rBST - The hormone used to increase milk production in cows. It tends to have some adverse effects on the cows, although the milk that is produced is nearly identical in composition. There are elevated levels of IGFs (a type of protein) in the milk. There have been associations between IGF levels in humans and types of cancer. It's crucial to note that these studies were based on serum levels of IGF (meaning IGF found inside the human body, not the IGF that we consume.) Consumed IGF is actually denatured (digested) in your stomach and intestine, so consumption of IGF won't increase your IGF serum levels. So any claim that milk from cows treated with rBST is somehow carcinogenic isn't rooted in real science.

Antibiotics - These are given to cows regularly regardless of whether they are being treated with hormones (correct me if I'm wrong.) It is a preventative measure to ward off mastitis and perhaps other infectious diseases. The concern is that this practice will create antibiotic resistant diseases that can be harmful to humans and other types of life. There have been some studies that suggest that this concern is valid (findings of bacterial strains believed to originate on farms), although I'm not sure if there is enough data and research on the issue to put the risk into perspective.

Growth Hormones - These are given to cattle to aid in their muscle development and other such things (basically what you would imagine a growth hormone to do.) There are measurable differences in hormone residues in beef from cattle treated with and without hormones. So it is showing up in the meat, but again, risk assessment is important. These are elevated levels of something that was there before (I think the WHO actually deems them as so small that they're indistinguishable.) Also, consider that every day the human body produces somewhere in the range of 30,000~40,000 times the amount of hormones you would find in a hamburger. What really matters though is the bottom line (does consuming those amounts affect human health.) There have been assertions that those hormones might effect pubescence and other things in humans consuming them, although there haven't been any studies that have found a correlation, so it's mostly factless conjecture.

Anyways, I'm not proclaiming myself to be some kind of expert on the matter, I'm simply an advocate of reason and skepticism. This is what I remember after researching organic food and such things for somewhere around a month. I avoid discussions like this IRL because I become subtly disturbed on a deep level when I encounter people espousing a bunch of pseudo-science bullshit that they might have heard on Oprah or whatever. It depresses me when I encounter people that are so casually willing to toss aside scientific innovation and decades of agricultural advancement in lieu of fashion.

I was an Animal Science major in college, and this is basically what I learned as well, I was just too lazy to try to find the facts myself >.> The amounts of additives given to animals are so small as to have literally no effect on the human body once cooked and eaten (or in the case of Milk, Pasteurized and drunk). Small amounts of hormones and antibiotics have a huge effect on the amount of lean muscle and milk that animals produce, and while it's not completely understood why antibiotics would do this, there has never been shown to be any effect on humans.

Certainly the western diet has too much of red meat and corn products, so cutting back on those would likely make you healthier, but moderation is key. Cutting out any particular food source will make it that much harder for you to balance your diet properly and remain healthy. Vegetarians have to work very hard to make sure they have the correct proportions of protein, fat, sugars, and fiber; it is much easier to balance this if you eat meat and dairy. Beef production has the most use of hormones and antibiotics, so if you're really worried about those, try chicken, pork, fish, and goat's milk.

[Silenka]

Some information for you~

Thanks for the info, that's interesting.

[Renzokuken]

Regarding the HFCS movement, I found this video here about a year ago. The science seems to be pretty solid, but have not heard much else this detailed on the subject since.



OP has some valid points for wanting to intervene, even if only looking at the situation through the monetary consequences. Also, a wife not willing to buy meat for her husband who wants nothing to do with her new lifestyle choices qualifies as a little bit crazy to me...

And for the lulz I leave you with the interwebs most notorious vegan mother feeding her son. Yummy...

[Kerberoz]

And for the lulz I leave you with the interwebs most notorious vegan mother feeding her son. Yummy...

kid reminds me of

[Senoska]

I hope thats not a serious argument against a vegan diet. I mean, are you fucking serious?
I eat exactly the same things in your diet minus meat. Thats the thing that changes. Not eating meat doesnt stop me from eating AWESOME chili, burrito's, pizza, vege burgers, all Indian food (FUCKING DELICIOUS), and every single thing you'd consider in a normal diet. I don't eat shit cakes like that kid, and I doubt OP's mom plans on that either. That is absolutely ignorant to even bring up sarcastically. There are tons of food out there geared specifically for a vegan and vegetarian diet I bet you wouldn't try because it has that title. Only when you try it, you find out its some of the best food you've ever eaten (Gonna stress Indian food here again, I love me some Indian food..) There are substitutes for everything. And 99% of the time, it will taste better than the original. As long as you know how to balance your diet, and dont sit there and eat awful food all day, you'll feel better (since you'll actually care what you shovel down your face.), you'll look better since you're not a fat slob, and if it floats your boat, you'll know that you have more will power and care for yourself and your environment than 95% of the people on the planet.

[Weiing]

Serious reply -

Is this fad diet also trying to sell her supplements and whatnot? If so, it's kind of a scam..... for having her buy other supplements.

However, if it's just talking about being more conscious about where you are getting your food, it makes sense. Commercially raised meat and dairy should be avoided at all times if possible, because it's really crappy... Cows getting pumped with hormones and being fed a corn/grain diet is not ideal for them (obviously), but ideal for farmers because that means they will get more meat for each animal.

It may be expensive to buy locally grown, grass fed meats, but it's possible to get good deals while buying good meat.

I see that a lot of discussion was/is focused on the vegetarian aspect... and coming from one who is now not a vegetarian, I can safely say that most vegetarians eat crap. Just because someone doesn't eat meat doesn't mean they are still not eating crap. They are still eating pizza, "veggie" burgers, fries, deep fried crap, sugary crap, etc etc. Also, "meat alternatives" are just as processed as anything else. It's the greatest illusion of all! Honestly... Only RARELY will you find a vegetarian who is actually conscientious of what they eat, and only including whole food sources of protein like good diary, eggs, quinoa, lentils, and maybe garbanzo beans. Soy? It's crap. Wheat gluten? It's crap, too. Like Darus said, a lot of vegetarians eat waaaaaaay too many carbohydrates.

Meat is good, and meat is natural--unprocessed. You just need to find good sources of meat. It's the SOURCE of the meat that may make people ill. If you eat a good high fat, high protein, and low carb diet--all from good sources, you're set.

I'm sorry your mom's forcing your sister to convert. It's very unfortunate. Hopefully it's a phase... And I hope you tell her to become more educated on the topic.

[Senoska]

I was just using those as an example to prove a point, for the record. I cook almost all my food from scratch myself. I am very aware of my diet and plan heavily the amount of protein, fats, etc that I eat. I eat a lot of Indian food, and lots of Asian food as well. I shop at the farmers market almost exclusively and eat seasonal vegetables. My dad also has a vegetable garden, which gives me fresh veggies all the time (Its amazing what fresh vs store bought veges taste like. Its hard to believe the shit we pass off as food. Its easy to forget what a real tomato taste like if you just buy them from the store). I agree that processed food is junk, although, it makes for a good break or decent food if you're in a rush..

I think the solution to your problem, OP, if thats what you're going to call it, is stop being a leech and buy your own food if you're unhappy with the free food your parents are providing. "problem" solved.

[Weiing]

He doesn't live at home at the moment, so... I don't think it applies to him.

[Furtwangler]

not reading the thread, etc.

[plue]

It seems like your mom gets advice from people at a church... there's generally no helping people like that.

[Ddz]

My mom did the same thing when her (now deceased) husband was diagnosed with cancer. They got a lot of loaded "information" from a whole bunch of naturepaths and such that said similar things to them. The craziest thing I heard come out of her mouth was something along the lines of "chlorine absorbs through your skin, gets into your bloodstream and lacerates your veins", and then she bought filters for the shower/tap/everything water comes from. She pretty much loads up on everything organic, and spends a crapload of money at the supermarket. I called bullshit on everything but she doesn't listen. Oh well, I don't live at home anymore