Test Server Findings

[Atoreis]

Also all other empyrean WS benefit from some kind of crit rate buff. VS from impetus, CDC from being DEX moded which buff dDEX and WSC at the same time, NIN from innin.

[Prothescar]

Ukko's from Blood Rage. They didn't remove the crit rate. Impetus is pretty retarded yeah, Innin is useless once the NIN pulls hate. CDC getting a dDEX bonus is largely inconsequential, it won't be a massive boost to crit rate on VWNMs unless you're getting tons more DEX from somewhere that I'm not. Also worth noting that WAR gets rather nice DEX (STR+DEX) options, making that point rather irrelevant.

[Motenten]

I think you missing the part where Ukko high crit was balanced with low fTP. Its now not better than Raging Rush.

Edit: Fixed war numbers.

Using the same gear set at ~100 TP:
Ukko @30% crit rate: 2150
Ukko @15% crit rate: 1950
Rush @15% crit rate: 1650

Add Restraint and hold to ~300 TP:
Ukko @30% crit rate: 3400
Ukko @15% crit rate (max 65%): 3150
Ukko @15% crit rate (max 50%): 2900
Rush @15% crit rate: 2450

Either way, Ukko's is at worst still about 18% ahead of RR.

If WARs really want to bitch, bitch that Victory Smite is now significantly more powerful than Ukko's rather than Ukko's being weaker than Raging Rush.

Assuming Smite has the same 15%~50% crit rate range as RR (and not making any guesses as to how much it was nerfed; nerfed version will be lower than this):

With Impetus:
@~100TP: 2450
@~300TP: 2950

Without Impetus:
@~100TP: 2000
@~300TP: 2350

Pre-nerf Smite vs post-nerf Ukko: ranges from Smite being a bit better to Ukko being a bit better, depending on TP and buffs. After Smite adjustments have been determined, Ukko's should still generally be ahead.

[Prothescar]

Then they have absolutely nothing to complain about, fantastic.

I didn't take WAR's crit damage bonus into account myself, and miscalculated the higher DA of WAR; the weaponskill itself is stronger in a literal by-the-numbers sense before taking into account the jobs attached, but those jobs wielding them are what cause the gap here. Thus I refer to my previous statement of a still powerful weaponskill being used by a still powerful job.

[Septimus]

Then they have absolutely nothing to complain about, fantastic.

I didn't take WAR's crit damage bonus into account myself, and miscalculated the higher DA of WAR; the weaponskill itself is stronger in a literal by-the-numbers sense before taking into account the jobs attached, but those jobs wielding them are what cause the gap here. Thus I refer to my previous statement of a still powerful weaponskill being used by a still powerful job.

Something being less good than it used to be means that there is something to complain about. Anyone celebrating any nerf is just letting their schadenfreude show in public- people should be lamenting that the Devs didn't improve the other Empyrean weaponskills to have similar damage if the Devs were so interested in "Balance".

[Julian]

And for all of you advocates of "THEY SHOULD BUFF EVERYTHING NOT NERF IT!", you're fucking stupid. Yes, let's cripple FFXI's broken hate system even more by letting every DD in the game do even more damage and thus accrue hate even more rapidly, that'll fix things for sure.

Or they could have, oh, I don't know, FIXED THE HATE SYSTEM?

We are supposed to get stronger as we level up. If that breaks their hate system, then they should fucking fix it, not make everyone who would otherwise be cool and strong this update, weaker than they were before it.

[Prothescar]

Something being less good than it used to be means that there is something to complain about. Anyone celebrating any nerf is just letting their schadenfreude show in public- people should be lamenting that the Devs didn't improve the other Empyrean weaponskills to have similar damage if the Devs were so interested in "Balance".

This is balance, just not balanced in the direction that everyone wants to see.

The hate system is such a mess that I doubt it's fixable at this point. If it is, it would be easier to fix it this way than the alternative. This is no different than balancing in any other MMO ever created. Get over it.

[grevenilvec75]

This is balance, just not balanced in the direction that anyone wants to see.

ftfy

[Prothescar]

By all means, if you can find a way to solve the problems that would come into play with increasing every weaponskill to stupid proportions, then sure. I would like stronger weaponskills as much as anyone else, but only if the consequences are reasonably sorted in the process. They'd also have to balance other weaponskill sets, such as Relic weaponskills, to coincide with this.

[grevenilvec75]

By all means, if you can find a way to solve the problems that would come into play with increasing every weaponskill to stupid proportions,

They're already doing this with monsters. Our LS PLDs (non-ochain) get 1-shotted quite frequently in voidwatch.

[Septimus]

This is balance, just not balanced in the direction that everyone wants to see.

The hate system is such a mess that I doubt it's fixable at this point. If it is, it would be easier to fix it this way than the alternative. This is no different than balancing in any other MMO ever created. Get over it.

When did they say that the hate system is why they are going to nerf the weapon skills? I looked through the Dev tracker and saw nothing remotely like that. And if that was their goal, why not just change the critical hit formula so that all crits do less damage and cap per swing damage as well? That would be balanced because everyone would be nerfed evenly.

The hate system has always been a mess in this game, even before level 75. They could fix it, but it would require more work than anyone is willing to put into this game.

[NynJa]

Everything in voidwatch is DD tanked and relies on fanatics spam if you are doing it right.

Maybe this is why they're raping war's in the ass so hard with a steel 12 inch dildo?
When VW groups are made based on "how many ukko wars do we have", theres a problem, and you know it.

tbh though, dropping 3 rather huge nerfs on 1 job in 1 patch is pretty fucking retarded. How piss poor insight must you have to not realize how badly you overpowered some things on one job for ~25 levels, and THEN decide "oh, its too strong, better fix it"

[Prothescar]

When did they say that the hate system is why they are going to nerf the weapon skills? I looked through the Dev tracker and saw nothing remotely like that. And if that was their goal, why not just change the critical hit formula so that all crits do less damage and cap per swing damage as well? That would be balanced because everyone would be nerfed evenly.

The hate system has always been a mess in this game, even before level 75. They could fix it, but it would require more work than anyone is willing to put into this game.

Common sense, use it.

[Nightfyre]

Tested out sam af body+2. First test I used usukane body, with a soboro fighting Tundra Tigers @ Fauregandi OP. STR 93+94 (/blm, no DA in gear). Also, used Gekko @ 300% for all ws's

Usu body:
high: 1331
low: 1005
avg: 1147 (15 WS's)

STR 93+95 for this sample*
Saotome Domaru +2:
high: 1391
low: 993
avg: 1204 (15 WS's)

I know it's a small, small sample size, but is that a 4-5% increase on overwhelm? 5/5 merits into the category

You can just go do a 300TP Spirits Within to something's face and have an exact number for Overwhelm, right?

Don't remember seeing any followup on this, so I went out and tried Spirits just now. Apparently... you can't. 750 damage (1600 HP) at 300 TP regardless of whether I was behind the mob, in front of the mob, or in front of it with domaru +2 equipped.

Going to try Raiden Thrust.

[Deader2818]

My Girlfriend makes 11 dollars an hour. I make 9 dollars an hour. Clearly instead of me making 11 dollars an hour, I want her to make 9 dollars an hour for "balance"

Honestly, its not like gimping Smite and Fury is doing anything to help the hate system, so why not just make other DDs better?

[Prothescar]

SE is either:

A) Too lazy
B) Too stupid

To handle the situation in an ideal manner. Given alternatives, a nerf to Ukko's Fury that barely touches WAR's ability to deal damage above other jobs and a minor nerf to Victory Smite that barely does shit all to impact MNK in the slightest is a preferable course of action. If there occur more widespread, heavy handed nerfs, then there will be a problem, but for now people are exploding and blowing this nerf way out of proportion.

[Deader2818]

SE is either:

A) Too lazy
B) Too stupid

To handle the situation in an ideal manner. Given alternatives, a nerf to Ukko's Fury that barely touches WAR's ability to deal damage above other jobs and a minor nerf to Victory Smite that barely does shit all to impact MNK in the slightest is a preferable course of action. If there occur more widespread, heavy handed nerfs, then there will be a problem, but for now people are exploding and blowing this nerf way out of proportion.

Ok, so if these nerfs are "so minor" then why even do a nerf at all?

[Prothescar]

Either to prepare for a bigger nerf, or to show that they aren't just sitting on their asses doing nothing. This did nothing to shift the balance of the job hierarchy and relative damage is still the same. The only nerf worth QQing over is the removal of crit damage from Blood Rage.

[Alarial]

I'm not sure why it matters to you that other people are upset over losing something they worked for, regardless of your opinion on whether it's more balance now or not.

[Prothescar]

Except, until they remove Ukko's Fury and/or Ukonvasara from the game, they didn't lose anything. What about my Masamune, did I lose that because they released Tachi: Shoha which shits all over Fudo? Did I lose my Almace the first time a Warrior did an 6k Ukko's Fury compared to my 1.5k Chant du Cygne?

What about relics? I guarantee relic holders at the time that Abyssea came out put in far more time and effort for their weapons compared to anyone who has ever made an Empyrean.

I worked for both of these weapons, and they've been shit or passable in comparison to Ukonvasara from the start. Buffing them, while an option, would create more problems than it's worth. You need to understand that this is Square-Enix; they don't just buff for free. Unless you're a Samurai.