The Official Forums III: It goes on forever, now.

[Kincard]

Exactly, heh. I mean, ODD, maybe, I can why they'd remove it offhand, but at least make them give the attack offhand.

Hate to break it to you, but there's no real reason to be using Kikoku main-hand anyway, because Blade: Shun just isn't very good. Kikoku shines more if you have a crit penalty, and none of those monsters are things where a NIN is actually present (Except maybe Morta, where you're there to proc). Well that, and any situation where you arn't able to get AM up for some reason. Both of these situations are currently nonexistent for a NIN.

Also, Twashtar beats STR Thokcha in many cases offhanded with a Mandau or Terpsichore. If you're main-handing Tizona, Almace is still a good offhand. You don't think DEX+15 plus a really high DPS in the offhand is good? Kannagi is trash in the offhand though, yeah.

So it'd basiclly make one-handed relics go from never being used to being used in the offhand all the time. Well, except Mandau, which will still be better than Twash main-hand.

[Byrthnoth]

I'd like to see at least some of:
* Eliminate the offhand limitations in all respects (WS access, WS damage bonus, AM activation, etc. all given from offhand)
* Increase relic aftermath duration by 50~100%
* Give the aftermath effects of Mythics and Empyreans to both hands for 1H users.
* Allow aftermaths to stack.
* For the love of god allow aftermaths of the same level (Mythics/Empyreans) to overwrite themselves.

Even with these changes, 1H jobs aren't suddenly going to take over endgame. It just makes it easier to design their special weapons because you can design a "special" weapon to be an offhand, like a mythic. Balance-wise, I'd get approximately a 10% increase in DPS on DNC with Terpsi/Twash and AM3. I'd also be able to use Climactic -> Rudra's with Twashtar in the offhand. The last time I worked it out, Terpsi/Twash currently represents a <10% increase over the next best option assuming perfect TP usage. Is 20% superiority really too unreasonable for my 800mil worth of weapons?

[Kincard]

Man, it'd be sweet if you could stack Mythic AM3 with Empyrean ODD. I think that would even make Nagi worth getting, lol.

And this is just my personal opinion, but...if you like a job enough to actually bother getting two REM weapons for it I think you kinda deserve to be a bit overpowered. =P

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, that's why I don't feel it would be *that* unreasonable.

Adding Mythic AM3 to Twashtar gives a DPS boost of 8~10% from Motenten's spreadsheet. Adding Mythic AM3 to Twashtar and Empyrean AM1 to Terpsichore give a bonus of about 20%, not counting activation. Using Empyrean AM3 instead of AM1 gives about a 30% damage boost, but obviously you'd be unable to do that unless you had a wing or something. Heck, I'm not sure how worthwhile it is to activate Empyrean AM without a wing at all, unless you're Climactic -> Rudra's-ing.

If they introduced this change, my playstyle would be able to become more varied (using Climactic Rudra's instead of just ignoring Flourishes III) and my DPS would increase a little.

Dancer and Monk are at the largest risk of becoming overpowered as a result of this change, and I don't feel that +10~20% damage for Dancer in a high support situation would make it overpowered. Against Morta, for instance, I'm still more than that far behind a 99 Rag DRK that probably isn't top of the line (I didn't know him). 800mil so I can be mildly competitive with a real DD job in high buff situations? Would that be so unreasonable?

As for Monk, they'd only be able to benefit from one AM at a time so the boost to their output would necessarily be lower.

[fantasticdan]

If you're main-handing Tizona, Almace is still a good offhand. You don't think DEX+15 plus a really high DPS in the offhand is good?

Compared to str +11/22 atk when using a WS with a huge attack penalty, no I don't think it is.

I would be gung-ho about removing the offhand restrictions on RME weapons if they also made mythics significantly easier to obtain. Tizona/almace with CDC would be amazing, but it's hard to care knowing I'll never make a mythic. Demand/price for alex would probably go way up if such a change went through as well. The cost difference between making 99mythic + 99emp for dnc|blu|etc. compared to a single 99 ragna/ukon/etc is disgusting even as it is now.

I'd much rather see them just fix 1h dd across the board than only for double RME users.

[Kincard]

Compared to str +11/22 atk when using a WS with a huge attack penalty, no I don't think it is.

I wouldn't be so sure. It's possible Shikargar is still better, but considering how Twash offhand beats Thokcha in the majority of situations for Mandau, which has a huge STR mod on Mercy Stroke and is attached to a job that usually has a huge attack starvation, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd still get similar results comparing Shikargar to Almace on offhand for a BLU. Though, STR Shikargar will win out for spell damage which is the point of Tizona, I guess. Probably depends on where your dDEX is currently sitting at for the target.

I would be gung-ho about removing the offhand restrictions on the weapons if they also made mythics significantly easier to obtain. Tizona/almace with CDC would be amazing, but it's hard to care knowing I'll never make one.

So basically you're arguing against it because you can't get a mythic?

I get your sentiment that they should fix one-handers overall, and I agree with it, but it'd be nice if they'd just do both.

[Byrthnoth]

I don't think the two goals are really exclusive. I guess I should revise it to:

* Eliminate the offhand limitations in all respects (WS access, WS damage bonus, AM activation, etc. all given from offhand)
* Increase relic aftermath duration by 50~100%
* Give the aftermath effects of Mythics and Empyreans to both hands for 1H users.
* Allow aftermaths to stack.
* For the love of god allow aftermaths of the same level (Mythics/Empyreans) to overwrite themselves.

* Give 1H users the same 3 Attack : 4 STR ratio as 2H users
* Give 1H users the same 2.25 Ratio cap as 2H users

The problem with the last two adjustments is that SE is even less likely to do those than the first five. SE has designed the game so that 1H users typically suck in high-buff/high dLVL events and 2H users only excel in high-buff/high dLVL events. Allowing all 1H users to suddenly compete with 2H users in high-buff events would disenfranchise 2H users and break their current "balance." The above buff is pretty much literally all that would need to happen for that outcome to occur.

But a buff that allows people dual wielding R/M/E weapons to compete? I could see SE maybe doing that.

[Churchill]

Monk would get a pretty insane DPS boost if AM worked on both fists/kicks.

[Byrthnoth]

The problem is that any fix that makes other 1H melee tolerable breaks Monk. Monk needs some "balancing" though, as it is specifically the job that stands between all other 1H melee and any kind of fix. I mean, it's not like I hate Monks or anything but this is just how the game plays out. Monk is the best 1H DD by a substantial amount, so if SE was going to decrease the 1H vs. 2H damage disparity they would either under-do it to compensate for Monk or they'd nerf Monk. I'd rather have a more complete fix, so I'd rather see a Monk-specific nerf with a 1H buff.

Still, letting it proc on any fist would be about a 10% increase in damage for them with AM1. It wouldn't make them competitive with 2H DDs in high level/high buff events.

[Churchill]

It would be more than that if it only incorporated the offhand, and not kicks. The other problem is, like you said, if you buff 1h then there is no reason to use a 2h DD. We're back to dual wielding axes and offhanding kraken clubs.

[Churchill]

I think though, leave Monk as is but treat the way stats interact with the job/weapon as you would a 2h weapon. 2h pDIF, str/dex/etc. Leave AM for mainhand only.

For 1h, I would say dual AM procs and a slight reduction in dLvl penalty.

For Ranged, almost a complete reduction of dLvl penalty, ODD barrage regardless of weapon, treat as a 2h for str/dex/etc.

[Vyvian]

I'd like to see at least some of:
* Eliminate the offhand limitations in all respects (WS access, WS damage bonus, AM activation, etc. all given from offhand)
* Increase relic aftermath duration by 50~100%
* Give the aftermath effects of Mythics and Empyreans to both hands for 1H users.
* Allow aftermaths to stack.
* For the love of god allow aftermaths of the same level (Mythics/Empyreans) to overwrite themselves.

Even with these changes, 1H jobs aren't suddenly going to take over endgame. It just makes it easier to design their special weapons because you can design a "special" weapon to be an offhand, like a mythic. Balance-wise, I'd get approximately a 10% increase in DPS on DNC with Terpsi/Twash and AM3. I'd also be able to use Climactic -> Rudra's with Twashtar in the offhand. The last time I worked it out, Terpsi/Twash currently represents a <10% increase over the next best option assuming perfect TP usage. Is 20% superiority really too unreasonable for my 800mil worth of weapons?

With 3 minute durations, I think you'd see more than a 10% increase from stacking both AM3s, and unlocking their proc activations onto both hands. Dropping mythic AM3 onto Rudra's storm is going to increase ws average a good bit too. Unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, I only meant mythic AM3. Terpsi and Twash AMs together is +30% if you ignore the cost of activating Twash. Empyrean AM1 is about 20% with mythic AM3, but I don't know if it is really worth using Rudra's every other ws for that.

I got these numbers using motenten's spreadsheets and editing some stuff (like giving twash OA2~3). It included to cost of building 300 TP with the mythic, but not the cost of AM1 activation. Also, it assumed AM1 can still only activate once per WS.

[Gokku]

How would monk /drk work with the new 2 hour for zergs? id be looking at about 5000hp in tp gear combined with either high haste or hundred fists and some serious cure bombs could you just go ape shit on stuff?

[Karbuncle]

Well since This is all nice and fun and INTERRUPTING THIS BULLCRAP TO BRING YOU IDIOTS:

Waste hours getting gear just so we have a chance to waste hours replacing it? What a way to waste time.

IDGAF who it is, Find it here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...945#post378945

I essentially took this as the final straw that we've gone full retard over there. I mean, I can't even correctly word how stupid that statement is. Am i the only one who couldn't see straight after reading it? I mean... He's essentially complaining he has to go through gear progression to get better gear...

I felt this thread needed some break from MAFFS about new 2hour abilities.

Knowing my luck guy posts here and he'll come defend himself shortly, Always happens when i finally snap and post something dumb.

[Taruina]

Originally Posted by Luvbunny
Empyrean +2 and Relic +2 gears should be more than adequate to beat these contents. As well as normal Magian Trials elemental weapons.

Whelp, there goes my brain.

[grevenilvec75]

Whelp, there goes my brain.

I kind of agree.

A while back SE stated that they don't balance content around requiring R/M/E weapons.

They were full of shit, but as a general rule I'd say that'd be a good way to design content.

People who gather up the major pieces of gear for their jobs and spend the effort to get a good magian weapon should have a good shot at completing all of the content.

[Mairja]

Why Karb, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?????!!!

Why did you post that link, and more importantly, why did I click it?... Should have known it would be full of people bitching, whining and crying about that now infamous post from SE.

[Shirai]

Oh god, I had to close that shitstorm to retain my own sanity.
Though I'm pleased to see that the DEV team is telling people to get off their fucking asses if they want to achieve something in this game.

[Taruina]

I kind of agree.

A while back SE stated that they don't balance content around requiring R/M/E weapons.

They were full of shit, but as a general rule I'd say that'd be a good way to design content.

People who gather up the major pieces of gear for their jobs and spend the effort to get a good magian weapon should have a good shot at completing all of the content.

While I agree that people who put forth the effort into getting the "good" gear for their jobs, I also know that there's a slew of "bad" gear choices that people can make that also take a lot of effort.

Most people, whether it be by VW's crappy luck system or not having a winning NNI group, are going to be stuck with gear that is good, but is also fairly outdated/ranked. This type of brick-wall that SE has created with ridiculous drop rates, has created a slew of experienced players who just can't get a break with the RNG, and that's just wrong on SE's side.

I hate to put in the "get an LS/group of friends" but it isn't terribly difficult or long to make an empy (or even a relic) to 90/95, if you have a group of people working towards that one goal. SE still has the game built around the all-for-one mentality.