What made you quit FFXI?

[Churchill]

I'm not sure what I would consider to be more sad, the fact that you have pre-ordained responses to why you have the mad at FFXI or that for some reason you think I give a shit about botting.

Maybe it was the part where I said I don't have a problem with it. I can see how that can be confusing.

More to the point, you are the guy who claims his LS didn't cheat and that you got all of your gear legit right?

[Damane]

More to the point, you are the guy who claims his LS didn't cheat and that you got all of your gear legit right?

ahahahaha thats a good one

[Gredival]

Maybe it was the part where I said I don't have a problem with it. I can see how that can be confusing.

No it's the part where you try talk about how 75 end game was less meaningful because of cheating. The implication is that 99 end game doesn't suffer from those flaws.

More to the point, you are the guy who claims his LS didn't cheat and that you got all of your gear legit right?

No. I never botted, and I claimed plenty despite that. But there were botters in my last shell. I knew who they were.

But I prized competency over morally righteous people who couldn't figure out how to stand on the feet.

[Deader2818]

He didn't cheat, he just had people cheat for him. Totally different things.

[Churchill]

Ah. So getting gear off the backs of people willing to risk their accounts to get loot but taking the moral high ground by not participating in such activities yourself.

Really makes you no better than them, especially because you knew they did it. Could also be called a coward or a leech for obtaining items from the efforts of others. Ah leeching, that's an Abyssea concept. Did Abyssea upset you because you were no longer alone in leeching?

I never said 75cap was less meaningful because of cheating, I said 99 cap is no different than 75 cap and for someone to argue that 75 cap took some sort of skill beyond finding the MobID and going afk for 30m would make that person dress on head retarded.

[Jem]

ahahahaha thats a good one

Not from his LS but we got all our shit without botting and were completely legit to the point where we booted people if they botted or RMT'ed or the such. We were decently successful too. Hell, even ApRadar was outlawed for ages before being relaxed after a change of leadership.

It was possible to do well without botting, you were just obviously at a significant disadvantage.


Don't get me wrong though, I never had an issue with anyone who did bot. It was always your own choice whether you botted or not. If people did bot and accepted the associated risk/reward then fair play to them and no gripes from me at least.

[Nevex]

Ah. So getting gear off the backs of people willing to risk their accounts to get loot but taking the moral high ground by not participating in such activities yourself.

LMAO @ trying to guilt-trip someone because he refused to cheat. Botting is a personal choice, just because the majority of a LS does that it doesn't make any of them "heroes risking their accounts" or any bullshit like that.
Likewise, if a guy in that LS refuses to cheat it doesn't make him a coward, unless that LS had a "if you join us you must bot" policy and everyone who wanted to join knew that right from the start. Those people wouldn't be cowards, just other botters. Which is worse, of course.

[Damane]

Not from his LS but we got all our shit without botting and were completely legit to the point where we booted people if they botted or RMT'ed or the such. We were decently successful too. Hell, even ApRadar was outlawed for ages before being relaxed after a change of leadership.

It was possible to do well without botting, you were just obviously at a significant disadvantage.


Don't get me wrong though, I never had an issue with anyone who did bot. It was always your own choice whether you botted or not. If people did bot and accepted the associated risk/reward then fair play to them and no gripes from me at least.

In all honesty I doubt your shell would have done decently if some people in your shell wouldnt have used bots secretly. The difference between useing no bots at all and at least 5-6 people useing bots secretly is huge in a shell. I have witnessed ground kings myself. Everyone that claims they got their gear LEGIT from ground kings (not counting in Einherjar) is lying, because someone in the shell actually did their job (botting). Thus I would never state that I got ALL my Ground king gear legit, because that is just NOT true. But anyway boting is something in the past and has nothing to do with skill.

Imho the most skillfull/skilldemanding event (-gear duping) was Salvage at lvl 75.
AV and PW dont count, they either were ridiculous to beat, or just needed a massive amount of bodys to plow through. Where as more Bodys in Salvage was more hurtfull then usefull.

[Gredival]

He didn't cheat, he just had people cheat for him. Totally different things.

Ah. So getting gear off the backs of people willing to risk their accounts to get loot but taking the moral high ground by not participating in such activities yourself.

Who claimed a moral high ground? I just think that anti-HNM arguments that rely on arguing about bots are inherently dysfunctional arguments. You're latching onto something tangentially because you don't have anything else to throw.

I simply didn't want to support Maury with his blood money. I believe he created a vicious artificial market cycle out of greed and the impact on the health of FFXI was an afterthought.

Really makes you no better than them, especially because you knew they did it. Could also be called a coward or a leech for obtaining items from the efforts of others. Ah leeching, that's an Abyssea concept. Did Abyssea upset you because you were no longer alone in leeching?

This would be the point of pointing out that I claimed plenty despite not botting. I put my fair share of work in. I actually put in more work; while others relied on bots, I stayed up to camp the window instead of just parking my afk ass there and going to sleep and relying on an auto-warp and auto-claim to get me DKP. And I also camped Cerberus and Khimaira through sheer effort (with an hourly alarm clock at night if necessary) rather than parking a mule with an alarm there.

Also your arguments fundamentally assume that someone that doesn't bot is a leech because they can't contribute without botting. That's untrue. I fundamentally believe that the most important aspect of success at HNMs was activity level, regardless of the % of bot use amongst those active. I'd take 20 people who are actually there and competently camping windows over 14 people botting any day.

I said 99 cap is no different than 75 cap and for someone to argue that 75 cap took some sort of skill beyond finding the MobID and going afk for 30m would make that person dress on head retarded.

And I pointed out plenty of examples of how 99 cap fundamentally removed aspects of gameplay and skill, and not just removed the opportunity to bot. But good job latching onto the one straw you could grasp and try puff up some smoke about.

This would be why I keep boiler-plate text around. The same stupid arguments come out time after time, it's just more efficient to copy-paste.

[Gredival]

In all honesty I doubt your shell would have done decently if some people in your shell wouldnt have used bots secretly. The difference between useing no bots at all and at least 5-6 people useing bots secretly is huge in a shell. I have witnessed ground kings myself. Everyone that claims they got their gear LEGIT from ground kings (not counting in Einherjar) is lying, because someone in the shell actually did their job (botting).

Botting only matters when you compare relatively equal amounts of people. It is a tool to maximize the efficiency of claims by spreading delays uniformly rather than randomly. But numbers are always crucial in this.

I saw two servers' HNM scene collapse after the introduction of a NASA shell. People blamed NASA and said the botting was unbeatable. NASA shells were wildly successful because people would give up against them and didn't put in the effort to counter-camp them. Then the more people who bandwagoned onto the NASA shell, the worse it got. Up to the point the NASA shell would be unstoppable - not because of the bot but because of the sheer numbers. When you have a 3 to 1 advantage, it's not the bot getting you those claims. Comparatively, in my last shell we only had maybe 30% botters using linked camping. But we were able to consistently beat a NASA shell, even with subpar bot usage, because we didn't let this NASA shell straight infest Aery.

I also played in a shell that was near 100% legitimate and actively kicked people for botting. That shell was still dominant in claiming up until NASA hit the scene. It collapsed, but not because it was impossible to win against NASA. It collapsed because people didn't want to camp against NASA.

A large enough shell with people *dedicated* to actually camping ALWAYS had the potential to succeed even with 0 bots. But botting made it easier to succeed with less members AND less dedicated members.

[Damane]

And I pointed out plenty of examples of how 99 cap fundamentally removed aspects of gameplay and skill, and not just removed the opportunity to bot. But good job latching onto the one straw you could grasp and try puff up some smoke about.

This would be why I keep boiler-plate text around. The same stupid arguments come out time after time, it's just more efficient to copy-paste.

The aspects of gameplay at 99 and 75 are still there and actually the same. I would even say 99 does a better job due to trigger needs in events like Voidwatch. The focus just moved from elegy/slowing down the enemy + PD/zerging, to takeing as little dmg as possible with scherzo/EA/drinks + PD/Zerging. There is seriously not a big change, just the focus from some jobs at 75 shifted to other jobs at 99. The same crapy enmity system and flawed defense system is still intact as it was at lvl 75, its just more blatantly visibel then before.

Every HNM at lvl 75 was piss easy with Elegy and Slow II ¬.¬ and the ones that actually required skill/alot of bodys got a zerg down tactic that worked well.

[Damane]

Botting only matters when you compare relatively equal amounts of people. It is a tool to maximize the efficiency of claims by spreading delays uniformly rather than randomly. But numbers are always crucial in this.

I saw two servers' HNM scene collapse after the introduction of a NASA shell. People blamed NASA and said the botting was unbeatable. NASA shells were wildly successful because people would give up against them and didn't put in the effort to counter-camp them. Then the more people who bandwagoned onto the NASA shell, the worse it got. Up to the point the NASA shell would be unstoppable - not because of the bot but because of the sheer numbers. When you have a 3 to 1 advantage, it's not the bot getting you those claims. Comparatively, in my last shell we only had maybe 30% botters using linked camping. But we were able to consistently beat a NASA shell, even with subpar bot usage, because we didn't let this NASA shell straight infest Aery.

I also played in a shell that was near 100% legitimate and actively kicked people for botting. That shell was still dominant in claiming up until NASA hit the scene. It collapsed, but not because it was impossible to win against NASA. It collapsed because people didn't want to camp against NASA.

A large enough shell with people *dedicated* to actually camping ALWAYS had the potential to succeed even with 0 bots. But botting made it easier to succeed with less members AND less dedicated members.

so in the end you just approved of my point that 18 bots > 6 botters > no botters. and you can stuff your legit LS somewhere in the corner. THERE was allways people/group in a shell boting secretly lol.

[Jem]

In all honesty I doubt your shell would have done decently if some people in your shell wouldnt have used bots secretly. The difference between useing no bots at all and at least 5-6 people useing bots secretly is huge in a shell. I have witnessed ground kings myself. Everyone that claims they got their gear LEGIT from ground kings (not counting in Einherjar) is lying, because someone in the shell actually did their job (botting). Thus I would never state that I got ALL my Ground king gear legit, because that is just NOT true. But anyway boting is something in the past and has nothing to do with skill.

Imho the most skillfull/skilldemanding event (-gear duping) was Salvage at lvl 75.
AV and PW dont count, they either were ridiculous to beat, or just needed a massive amount of bodys to plow through. Where as more Bodys in Salvage was more hurtfull then usefull.

I'd be surprised if they did bot. And that's purely down to the fact that if they did, they would openly admit it now.

And granted SE has always been lenient but if people had botted, we would have seen at least 1 ban in ~6 years. Even a temporary one but it never happened. Not even during salvage bans.

[Gredival]

The aspects of gameplay at 99 and 75 are still there and actually the same. I would even say 99 does a better job due to trigger needs in events like Voidwatch. The focus just moved from elegy/slowing down the enemy + PD/zerging, to takeing as little dmg as possible with scherzo/EA/drinks + PD/Zerging. There is seriously not a big change, just the focus from some jobs at 75 shifted to other jobs at 99. The same crapy enmity system and flawed defense system is still intact as it was at lvl 75, its just more blatantly visibel then before.

Every HNM at lvl 75 was piss easy with Elegy and Slow II ¬.¬ and the ones that actually required skill/alot of bodys got a zerg down tactic that worked well.

Voidwatch requires barely any coordination and reactive play. The temp items not only make it easier to zerg, it makes it easier to recover from people being dumb due to easy access invulnerability that refreshes with the use of certain JA/WS/Spells that you are prompted to use. Voidwatch's difficulty is such that a person can succeed at the highest levels through shout groups alone.

Comparatively 75 content all required some small modicum of reaction/coordination in excess of the traditional Voidwatch, RELATIVE to a 75-capped player.

PW was a zerg of a higher level of difficulty, relying on a higher base eq and skill due to no temp items, atma(cite). It required a highly coordinated group to get to the final zerg stage.

Tier 3 Einherjar were also zergs of a higher level of difficulty, relying on a higher base eq and skill due to no temp items, atma(cite). It could require crowd control, something completely absent in most Voidwatch (the few that spawn multiple units are low tier with the exception of Qilin)

Odin was a fight that required people who could actually pay attention and respond to certain phases of the battle.

As I said before, I'd say Fomor Kings, Lambton, Tiamat, DI, KB, Fafhogg, and Aspid all required much more coordination than Voidwatch because you were playing without Atma(cite), Temp Items, and the higher amounts of refresh (both gear and spell/song based) that exist now.

so in the end you just approved of my point that 18 bots > 6 botters > no botters. and you can stuff your legit LS somewhere in the corner. THERE was allways people/group in a shell boting secretly lol.

More like 20 legit people > 15 botters > 15 legit people > 6 botters > 6 legit. Botting was only advantage in relatively equal terms. In most situations, completely additional chances to claim are superior to normalizing your standard deviation in claim delay.

[Noob]

I put my fair share of work in. I actually put in more work; while others relied on bots, I stayed up to camp the window instead of just parking my afk ass there and going to sleep and relying on an auto-warp and auto-claim to get me DKP. And I also camped Cerberus and Khimaira through sheer effort (with an hourly alarm clock at night if necessary) rather than parking a mule with an alarm there.

I can remember doing that. God damn did it suck getting my sleep in 58 minute bursts....

OFF TOPIC
What's the backstory behind your avatar Gredival? Just curious.

[Milkster]

Do Noob and Gredival want awards/medals for playing this awful game inefficiently? Manually camping mobs that could take up to two to three days to spawn? This is the most idiotic thing I've ever read on these forums.

Also, just because someone has botted for years doesn't mean they would've been banned at least once. As long as your aren't stupid, you fly so low under SE's radar. There were other bots besides Arenz and NASA, that predated them by years.

[Jurist]

Doing FFXI correct at 75 was like excelling at high school.

Mmmmhmmmm.

[Noob]

Do Noob and Gredival want awards/medals for playing this awful game inefficiently? Manually camping mobs that could take up to two to three days to spawn? This is the most idiotic thing I've ever read on these forums.

Idiotic? If it were idiotic, it still pales in comparison to the things people are counter responding with. What's idiotic is people trying to claim Aby and VW take more coordination and skill than the things Gredival listed, which was nearly everything endgame had to offer. For those who missed the list:

AV, PW, Odin, Bv2, Tiamat, Lambton, DI, Fomor Kings, KB, Fafhogg, and Aspid.

To say this game took a step forward in comparison to where it was, is ridiculous, and pretty fucking stupid. I can remember when it took strategies to win at things. Just because looking back now all of those things were relatively easy due to the amount of time they'd been out and the amount of practice people had to get them down to a science still doesn't change the fact that it took a strategy and some degree of skill to accomplish them. Strategies still had to be developed in order to win. Aby & VW took next to no skill or strategy straight out the door. That tells you something about where SE's thinking was when they developed these events.

How the fuck are their still people trying to pass this game off as somehow being better now than it was before? Especially after all the points we've outlined which prove otherwise. Do people really have their heads shoved that far up their own asses, or has BG just gone completely soft in the endgame department? If you can't agree with the way things were before, at least be able to admit that this game had far more substance back then that it does now, and if you're only gripe with the way things were back then is botting for claims, it was your own dumb fucking fault for not doing it, because everyone was doing it, and SE never did a God damn thing about it, making it as close to ToS approved as it could possibly get, thus making bitching about it null & void.

Also, just because someone has botted for years doesn't mean they would've been banned at least once. As long as your aren't stupid, you fly so low under SE's radar. There were other bots besides Arenz and NASA, that predated them by years.

Mr.Argus & FFXIAP aren't news to anyone. Even those who didn't bot HNMs used FFXIAP for things like fishing. Is this suppose to be news to us?

[NynJa]

That's not really a fair comparison. Bots only made it to where your LS's claim methods were spread out in an organized fashion instead of hit macro/spell and pray. Brewing is pretty much oh derp everyone is wiping better brew Amun!

Or it means I'd rather not waste another 10 minutes per Dragua killing it 60 times, and then another 60 times for someone else, and then another 60 times for someone else.

People can lie all they want about how it was "the thrill of the fight". Cmon man, why lie to blatantly...its the loot. And if you had a "game genie potion" to insta drop any HNM, you'd use it, because once you've killed it 20 times without problems, you can kill it, and at that point its just wasting time.


SE should have always just cut HNM HP in half and put them straight in TP spam mode with all their TP moves unlocked.

[Churchill]

VW Temp items make the game easy mode for good players.

VW Temp items do not make it easier for shitty players to do anything.