The occupation of wallstreet

[Ksandra]

My statement isn't directed to the protesters...it's directed at bum who said:

what is your reaction to those that do however?

[Ksandra]

I think in the case of mallister and his ilk, we will simply have to force them to pay up for the services and infrastructure that we want, whether he likes it or not.

I'm fine with that.

[Cyn]

I'm fine with that.

Gotta break some eggs?

[Senoska]

@seno i would have to say the same thing about your statements. going to have to agree to disagree i guess. who/what exactly guarantees you a future, and what exactly does that entail? who pays for it?

We all do. Government is our collective actions.

i'm sorry but no one 'guarantees' you much of anything (unless they're bullshitting you). you're not entitled to a college education, or health care, or a job, or a car, or an xbox or anything else really except to be born and eventually die. the rest are things you earn, and you struggle for, and hope to have someday, not something you're entitled to when you're issued a social security number.

We guaranteed what is entitled to us. That's why they're called Entitlements, because they're entitled to us as Americans because we pay for them. I'm entitled to a military to protect me, a police force to do the same, roads to drive on, etc. And I'm guaranteed these things because we decided to guarantee them for ourselves.

and no, they are not desperate and starving with nothing to loose. i spent three years in afghanistan, i have seen people who really are desperate, starving, with nothing to loose, and they bear no resemblence whatsoever to what i've seen of this protest.

Then you havent looked hard enough at home. How many people have lost everything? We're the number one economy in the world, and we're not by any means doing bad. Money is coming in like mad. The only thing is, that the money is being split up by 1% of the people while the 99% fight over what is left from the scraps, which is why this movement is important, why its getting so much attention, and why you're wrong with your initial premise.

[Gregorio]

what is your reaction to those that do however?

To those who pay their debts and are protesting? Power to them. As Kuya mentioned, it sucks that big businesses got bailouts that they shouldn't have gotten while taxpayers got screwed and people have every right to be mad about that. But I personally don't think we should increase our debt by bailing out college students also. Just because one group got an undeserved handout for failing at their jobs doesn't mean everyone should get undeserved handouts.

[mallister]

stating again i don't buy into your premise whatsoever.

[mallister]

also again, yeah, done here. best of luck with the protests guys. those of you out there making your voices heard, whether i agree with what you say or not, be safe. especially the guys out in dallas now. dallas cops don't play nice.

[Shakki]

build another one that's better.

Isn't this exactly what the protesters are hoping to do?

I have a college degree and get by on my shitty nearly-minimum wage income because I budget carefully, spend frugally, and so on...and because I have family to fall back on if something terrible happens. Are other people who make the same money than me doing worse because they blow their money on things they don't really need, don't plan for the future, etc.? Sure. But there are also people who are doing worse because their circumstances are different than mine (they don't know how to budget, they have to help support their children or their family members, whatever) and who couldn't get by on the same income no matter how hard they try.

Any system is flawed. One that attempts to help the latter can always be exploited by the former. On the other hand, refusing to allow for any exploitation means you are also refusing to provide any help, whether the people in question "deserve" it or not. I would rather attempt to deal with exploitation than just assume everyone who feels they're drowning in debt is just being irresponsible or not trying hard enough.

[Kuya]

It's important to remember that convincing mallister isn't the point. Alls you need to do is convince most people that a certain service or infrastructure benefits most people, particularly them. It's not terribly hard if the service in question visibly benefits someone in an appreciable way. What you do need to do is associate the idea of taxes with these popular services/infracstructure like they do in certain parts of Europe.

Once you convince most people of this, the whining of people like mallister will mean nothing as they won't have any choice but to pay their taxes as they stew. In fact, that already happens with Medicare to some extent.

[notorious bum]

Just a quick note: I realize my decision to not pay any of my student loan debt is not the norm, but personally I can't afford to anyways. Sally wants me to quote "pay whatever I can a month". But, why the hell would I throw down $30 or whatever their suggested payment is per month when I need every cent I gain from this little side-job consisting mainly of selling shit on the internet? That $30 could save me from an unexpected emergency that could put me further underwater in bills.

I'm sure alot of college students are in my situation, that's why I brought up that loan-payment strike proposal. Obviously, the only reason why this would even be suggested is the surge in youth unemployment, so if you're faced with nothing to lose, then it's not that big of a leap to organize in a way to turn some heads.

[Boyiee]

I'm sure college students would pay their loans back if they could get jobs with the degrees they earned.

[notorious bum]

I'm sure college students would pay their loans back if they could get jobs with the degrees they earned.

QFT Without a doubt, I'm the type who would be paying it off early, infact.

[Meresgi]

I'm sure college students would pay their loans back if they could get jobs with the degrees they earned.

Pretty much, if we could get jobs that paid for the degree, even if it paid for the degree in 5yrs it would be fine..not having to work almost min. wage to pay off a degree loan for 10+years.

[Spicyryan]

.

[Greatguardian]

My statement isn't directed to the protesters...it's directed at bum who said:

Which is why I think you're misinterpreting a lot of other people here.

I fully intend to pay my loans. That doesn't mean that the system isn't absolutely broken.

If you don't go to college? You're fucked.

If you go to college? You're fucked, but if you have connections or you're lucky enough you may get something out of it.

No one asks you what your parents make on your applications because, if you need to fill out an application, then your parents don't make enough. If your parents make enough, then they probably already know the person who's going to be hiring you and it doesn't matter what the fuck qualifications you have or don't have, you can get the job.

The job system in the US is not about what you know, it's about who you know. And when the "Whos" are consolidating their power base, and the "Nobodies" are going out of business, you have to be damn lucky or damn connected to get places. Maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky enough to network yourself to someone who actually does know people, then you'll have a head start yourself. But that's hardly something the majority of people can count on.

That is the problem. The problem is not "Booo hoooo I have all this debt and I'm unable to contribute to society", it's "What the fuck? I'm a hard working, university educated person in a respectable field and I'm still unable to find work because I don't know the right people." I have every intention of working my ass off to pay back every cent that I borrowed, but I can't do that if I can't land a job anywhere but food service and retail with a Bachelor's of Science in Computer Science.

And you know what? I still shouldn't have all this debt in the first place. Education is the prime foundation of a successful, developed nation. Maybe when some country whose people have brown skin starts beating us in education (oh wait... Okay, maybe when the Middle East does it then) and first world development, people will actually start to fucking pay attention to the fact that the United States is anything but developed relative to the rest of the world. I love my fucking country, but that doesn't mean I'm going to toady to its shitty policies and poor priorities. Developed countries aren't personified as warmongering bigots entrenched in religious fervor. Developed countries work together with their citizens for the benefit of mankind. If you want to benefit the US, educate its populace. Improve its roads, highways, and infrastructure. Improve the quality of life for all its citizens, not just the ones who can afford it. We should not have a 15% poverty rate in the richest country in the world.

[Kuya]

Not to mention employers unwilling to hire you for the relevant field because you lack experience, experience which they will not give you the chance to acquire. So your only other option is to work for free by finding a internship that probably won't pay, but the problem is you got expenses and a debt to pay down, which you will no doubt have to do by getting a second low wage paying job whilst you work on an internship. Slowly killing yourself.

[Greatguardian]

Not to mention employers unwilling to hire you for the relevant field because you lack experience, experience which they will not give you the chance to acquire. So your only other option is to work for free by finding a internship that probably won't pay, but the problem is you got expenses and a debt to pay down, which you will no doubt have to do by getting a second low wage paying job whilst you work on an internship. Slowly killing yourself.

Add to this the fact that being college educated also knocks out "lower end" jobs because employers will feel that you are overqualified, and thus not worth the training/hiring investment to them as they can somehow convince themselves that you are likely to leave as soon as you find a better job. I mean, damn straight I'd leave retail if I found a better job, but it's hilarious that they think people are actually finding these better jobs.

[bigrougabagel]

being college educated also knocks out "lower end" jobs because employers will feel that you are overqualified, and thus not worth the training/hiring investment

Thought about this the other day. What would be preventing someone from just omitting the fact that they have a college degree if they needed that grunt job just to get by? I am not entirely aware of any legal ramifications this would have.

[Greatguardian]

Thought about this the other day. What would be preventing someone from just omitting the fact that they have a college degree if they needed that grunt job just to get by? I am not entirely aware of any legal ramifications this would have.

Applications still ask for your terminal educational experience most of the time (eg, "What was the last school you attended and when?"). If your employers ever found out that you had lied on your application, they could pretty much fire you whenever they wanted for whatever they wanted. At least, that's my (potentially wrong) understanding of it.

[notorious bum]

I remember hearing about how America was the most overworked developed country in the world in the late 90's while in middle school. I found that trend appalling at the time but, I can't even imagine what kids are experiencing nowadays with this virtual depression upon their lives. That has to do something serious to your psyche.