Square Enix: Final Fantasy XIV 'Greatly Damaged' Entire Brand

[Correction]

They still make great games with the same team sizes and production values as in the Sakaguchi era.

On handhelds, and mostly when they're not called 'Final Fantasy' anywhere. We're talking about their flagship brand here and if the above applied to FF as it stands today we wouldn't have this discussion. To hand wave it as 'well the industry changed' begs the question of 'well how about not standing still as market demand/taste in RPGs evolves with an aging core fanbase?' and doesn't really begin to address what changed, how SE failed to recognize it, and where they are today in their plans to adapt.

[Elcura]

I can back that. I honestly have a problem with people thinking that the games themselves hold some insight into why they were successful. If simply playing a game made you a good director or designer, then everyone would be awesome at it. It's the planning behind the games, the management of the teams (which is still difficult, because the team needed to make FF1 is vastly smaller and easier to manage than the team for FF13.) You can't understand all the things that go on behind the scenes and under the hood from just playing games. Nor can you relive past glories by just copying what you already did.

[Dantrag]

It worked well in X-2 though because when you switched jobs you still didn't just hit the attack/heal button, you did things with them.

This, X-2 had the best system outside of the classic menu based. The gambit system sucks and just allows you to walk away for two days and be 10000000x higher level when you get back if you leave it in a high spawn area. There's nothing fun about that.

Other things:

As others said, open world please, I will gladly take graphic reductions in exchange for space where I can move around and have my airships back.

Let me breed chocobo again! Let me race them! So much fun

Be nice to have more final FANTASY games. I honestly don't mind the sci-fi ones, but it just feels there's too many of them in comparison now, leaving 9 as like the last true fantasy.

IX was really one of the best FF's in a while(Vivi :d)

To be truthful, I hate the gambit system and don't hope they continue with it. I like controlling all chars instead of just one, but not even sure if that's a common thought or if I'm just an oddball on that one.

Agree 100%

I can back that. I honestly have a problem with people thinking that the games themselves hold some insight into why they were successful. If simply playing a game made you a good director or designer, then everyone would be awesome at it. It's the planning behind the games, the management of the teams (which is still difficult, because the team needed to make FF1 is vastly smaller and easier to manage than the team for FF13.) You can't understand all the things that go on behind the scenes and under the hood from just playing games. Nor can you relive past glories by just copying what you already did.

It's not that playing the games will all of the sudden make them go "oh I'm a better producer/planner/programmer now." It's to remember what every LOVED about the old games. Most people that started before the VII age loved all the previous games and most of us enjoyed all the FF games except one here or there(my least favorite is VIII).

If you haven't read Zealot's thread about the story line behind each character in VI. There hasn't been an FF that had that kind of story intensity since.

[Hyan]

On handhelds, and mostly when they're not called 'Final Fantasy' anywhere. We're talking about their flagship brand here and if the above applied to FF as it stands today we wouldn't have this discussion. To hand wave it as 'well the industry changed' begs the question of 'well how about not standing still as market demand/taste in RPGs evolves with an aging core fanbase?' and doesn't really begin to address what changed, how SE failed to recognize it, and where they are today in their plans to adapt.

All I'm saying is looking back doesn't really help them with the problem.

Although they haven't stood still unlike Sakaguchi did with LO. The gameplay is moving towards the direction it should, and although action games evolved much faster (or had a headstart?) they seem to understand that gameplay that puts you to sleep can't be the norm anymore.

[Melena]

For me it would be story and character development. I enjoyed 1 on the NES even though the story was as basic as you could get. FF2 (4 in japan) on the SNES is what got me hooked, 3 (6) is what turned me into an addict. The stories were great, the music was amazing (dancing mad over 1 winged angel any day of the week), and I actually gave a shit about the characters. I enjoyed 7 but I didn't have the attachment to Cloud, Yuffie, etc as I did with Sabin, Edgar, Celes, Kain, Cecil, Rosa, etc. 8 had an ok story but dear god, I don't know what made me want to slit my wrists more, doing tech support on the PC port or listening to emo squall bitch. 9 to me was a huge step back in the right direction and I played the ever loving shit out of that one.

10 and 10-2 I played a bit, but the story just didn't hook me. Never got a chance to play 12 though I have it sitting, and 13 while I enjoyed it, was linear as hell and they buried hope in a pile of emoness that would have made squall and irvine as happy as a kid in disneyland by comparison.

Overall I don't think ff14 killed the brand. I do know i'll never buy an MMO from SE again and the unopened CE I have sitting on the bookshelf is a constant reminder of that.

[miokomioko]

The gambit system sucks and just allows you to walk away for two days and be 10000000x higher level when you get back if you leave it in a high spawn area. There's nothing fun about that.

I love how people throw that out there as if it were an accurate representation of the battle system in any way, and not just a very specific and specialized slow exploit only possible in one or two locations and only with a heavily tailored party, items, and gambits.

You may as well say there was nothing fun about FF7 because you could stand in the Midgar Zolom swamp with a turbo button held down and walk away from that game for a month with the same effects.

[Kaylia]

Give me a FF with the story/world quality of XII, and the gameplay of X (or X-2), and I'll be happy.

I've been playing Xenoblade lately, and the gameplay, while sharing a lot of similarities with FFXII/FFXIV, is incredibly fun and satisfying. It's definitively possible to make a great rpg based on that.

Personally, all I'm asking for is to bring exploration back. We need a huge world with multiples town, dungeons, secrets area, and beautiful scenary. They can sacrifice the awesome graphics if they have to, but a j-rpg need to be more than a long ride on a track (even if the story itself is linear). And if they ever bring that back, I'm sure the story will improve indirectly, because it open up more opportunities for character development


Also, they need to get ride of this retarded character design that has been around for too long (Homura mostly). I don't want my character to look like a 17 years old top model who spend 5 hours dressing up every day, it just doesnt work with me.

In contrast, character from older game always felt more mature than their recent counterparts. They had their issue, but idk, there was something about them that I haven't felt about the recent cast, with the exception of Lighting, Baltier or Basch.

[Elcura]

It's not that playing the games will all of the sudden make them go "oh I'm a better producer/planner/programmer now." It's to remember what every LOVED about the old games. Most people that started before the VII age loved all the previous games and most of us enjoyed all the FF games except one here or there(my least favorite is VIII).

If you haven't read Zealot's thread about the story line behind each character in VI. There hasn't been an FF that had that kind of story intensity since.

How do you quantify this though? How does it make you a better designer or director? I loved the story and characters in FF6. How do I take that memory and apply it to a new game? And even if I did, what promise is there that the result will be the same? Would be be better or worse, and how would people respond to it? You can say "REMEMBER WHERE YOU CAME FROM" over and over again, but there's little there that can actually make them better as a company.

[Correction]

All I'm saying is looking back doesn't really help them with the problem.

Although they haven't stood still unlike Sakaguchi did with LO. The gameplay is moving towards the direction it should, and although action games evolved much faster (or had a headstart?) they seem to understand that gameplay that puts you to sleep can't be the norm anymore.

For the last time, I'm not talking about looking at systems, mechanics or anything else to do with the gameplay of the first 9 games. I'm saying go back, study what Gooch did to manage the talent he assembled as he grew it for the first nine mainline games, and learn that it was his efforts that primarily contributed to their positive reception and growing sales. From Software is an excellent model to follow there, as they have a pretty small team that's managed almost perfectly from the conception of the vision for the game to the final, realized product; But I'm not saying they should make the next Final Fantasy like Demon's Souls.

1/5 the staff, better critical reception and a follow-up due out next week. Tell me the difference isn't in the management more than anything else. SE doesn't have to look strictly backwards to learn what it takes to be good management.

[Cichy]

While my favorite FF was Tactics and X I'd like to see them go back to the more "fantasy" worlds like IX. I think XIIIs universe is the worst by far and I dont particularly like that tech/organic monster design. Too bad we still getting atleast 2 if not 3 games set in there.

[Ksandra]

I love how people throw that out there as if it were an accurate representation of the battle system in any way, and not just a very specific and specialized slow exploit only possible in one or two locations and only with a heavily tailored party, items, and gambits.

while I see what you're saying, I found the gambit system make me want to fall asleep half the time. So while you technically were still playing it, it did leave the impression that I hadn't done anything at all (for me.) So I can see why people bring that up a lot.


Oh and I forgot the mention, the fact I could actually feel free to casts spells in X (and I guess 13) on random mobs instead of having to try save mp for bosses was so WTFAMAZING to me when that game came out. They should stick to that.

[Damane]

I think there is a reason, why I stoped finishing Final Fantasy games to the end since FFX (never finished FFX). I dont know, there was just nothing to... explore. (ok I didnt play FF12, skiped that one out totally) There was nothing that was driving me to actually see the end of the story. And FFXIII was a utter dipshit disapointment ¬.¬ (yes its still roting there unfinished!)

[Corrderio]

For me they need to bring the game back to it's roots.

1. No more futuristic/modern settings. I'd kill to have a FF set back in a high fantasy world similar to FF1-5.
2. A job system. The blank slate thing is fine every now and then, but we haven't had a real job system since 9 for single player FFs.
3. A story and characters that are actually interesting.

[Draylo]

I haven't played FFX-2 in a long time but from what I remember, I only hit attack in a good majority of fights... They hardly required job changing or anything special outside of smashing attack and using items to restore HP (think I had x2 attackers x1 healer or a chemist). I enjoy the turn based battles like in FF9, I think too many FPS meat heads are changing how most games are now.

[solracht]

I always bought these games for the story, characters, world settings, and music. If the gameplay and battle systems were good/fun, then I would do the "post-game" stuff or try to 100% the games.

I'll keep on throwing money at them as long as the story/characters/world seem interesting to me, but it's hard to justify paying full price for their games after being unhappy with some of the latest ones (FFXIII, FFXIV).

I don't think the franchise is dead for me yet, but their games are no longer a "day 1 buy" like they were years ago.

[Selamis]

I would want a great story with great music first. I want open world navigation like the older games, where you had the option of just exploring, and going to higher areas to level up, and the game gives you hints on what to do next but doesn't flat out hold your hand and bring you to the next area (FF13.) I dislike the gambit system, and I dislike only controlling one person and the other characters just are computer controlled, I want to be able to chose each action a party member does.

Get rid of weapon and armor upgrades with materials found in the world, bring back the purchasing of new gear to make our characters stronger, or at the very least make it like FF9's system of learning abilities and spells through gear, and only certain spells are obtainable by crafting certain armor pieces into something else. Back story on characters is important, but there should never be a sole focus on one character, with the exception of FF9, I feel they sort of shifted to this with FF8, where one or two people seemed to have the story focus more on them.

Revert back to a fantasy era like Ksandra said, 9 was good because it went back to that type of setting but everything else has felt too modernized, and that's not what Final Fantasy is about, and that was one of my major gripes with FF8, disregarding the game mechanics and what I felt was a terrible story...just the setting itself made me hate playing it. Turn based attack I personally like, but I know it doesn't really fly in this day and age, but it's sort of a staple of the series in my opinion.

[Elcura]

I haven't played FFX-2 in a long time but from what I remember, I only hit attack in a good majority of fights... They hardly required job changing or anything special outside of smashing attack and using items to restore HP (think I had x2 attackers x1 healer or a chemist). I enjoy the turn based battles like in FF9, I think too many FPS meat heads are changing how most games are now.

I'm confused here. So you didn't like X-2's battle system, which is the best ATB battle system in the series, but you like turn based battles in IX, which had less variety and no job switching? Battles need to be interactive, they need to force you to react and change. X-2 facilitated that far better than IX did, making it a better battle system. How the enemies are designed however, is just as important as how the battle system is designed. As much as an insult your comment is to FPS, at least even the most basic FPS forces you to react more than any turn based battle system would.

[Katlan]

Don't see how XIV has "greatly damaged" the Final Fantasy franchise. All the single player entries have been top-notch and very popular. I know FF13 came under some criticism because most people expected more from the franchise, but it was still positively received, a good RPG game, and sold well enough to warrant a sequel.

I for one would love to see Final Fantasy Versus be released since that has been in development for years upon years. That game has had a longer development cycle then that of the longest mmo, but that's prolly just due to the team being very small as the game isn't something the company wants to push out the door right yet.... But, still, having a game in development for that long can't be seen in positive light.

Final Fantasy XI was a solid mmo entry into the series and is still going relatively strong considering how old it is.

Final fantasy XIV was just a flop, and a big one at that. It's not even that the game had launch bugs and performance issues as that is expected on a mmo release and often looked past, it's just that nearly ever aspect of the game was a terrible idea. Landscapes may look pretty at first, but are boring... combat is still clunky and not intuitive. I mean I could go on w/all the problems, but it's all been said a hundred times. I think they put all their eggs in the graphics engine and hoped that would sell the game, because no developer could of thought they were pushing a good product out the door. And if that developer honestly thought they had somewhat of a good game there, then I don't know how they got that job in the first place or are even working in the industry. And on top of that, the graphic engine is very poorly optimized.

It may sound stupid, but I don't think ppl are that forgiving in the mmo department anymore. They tried the game, or some waited for reviews, and when they found out the game was terrible they put it down and will never look back. And by the time they may look back there will be something else that they are playing and they will no longer care about XIV no matter how many changes the game gets.

I think scrapping the game and using the engine and some basic design choices to make a new mmo is the best route. The game will never be profitable to what they want to achieve, or even close to that, and all this extra development time of the game being free is just depleting finite resources for which they will be able to recoup.

[Hyan]

I'm confused here. So you didn't like X-2's battle system, which is the best ATB battle system in the series, but you like turn based battles in IX, which had less variety and no job switching? Battles need to be interactive, they need to force you to react and change. X-2 facilitated that far better than IX did, making it a better battle system.

The story was bad. That's all it takes.

[Correction]

Don't see how XIV has "greatly damaged" the Final Fantasy franchise.

The list is long but look at the money spent/money earned ratio on XIV and tell me that doesn't put a damper on future development. SE is also done making Final Fantasy MMOs from now on. Just done. That's a lot of damage to a venerated brand. It's easy to oversell the damage done (especially on web forums, ha)