Square Enix: Final Fantasy XIV 'Greatly Damaged' Entire Brand

[Lordender]

Except it's true. There is a reason MMOs do better on PC than on consoles.

Because you can progressively upgrade everything. Graphics, sound, playability, everything can be upgraded.

What you seem to be referring to is the content of the game. That's not what I'm talking about.

Modern Warfare 2, does fine on console because it doesn't require any kind of HUGE tweaking. It's not alive in the same sense that an MMO is. It requires a lot less overall than a MMO from a development stand point.

I agree, when an MMO is 6-7 years old you can't just simply go back and start re-writing core mechanic's of the engine, adding function features kinda like what Blizzard has been slowly doing to WoW over the past few years with things like cross realm dungeoning(soon to be raids) real ID cross realm party with friends. SE is always going to be limited by the console which is why we're starting to see SE showing signs of wanting to ditch PS2 support.

[Hyan]

Except it's true. There is a reason MMOs do better on PC than on consoles.

Nobody does MMO's on consoles. Where do you pull these facts? XI did better than many if not most PC MMO's, in an era where MMO's weren't even that feasible on consoles in the first place.

Because online wasn't so integral part of the experience and people weren't used to paying extra after having purchased the game, its understandable why MMO's weren't done on consoles last gen. And neither were FPS's really. Only this gen they became so successful, before that the same mantra was repeated. "There's a reason FPS do better on PC than consoles".

Because you can progressively upgrade everything. Graphics, sound, playability, everything can be upgraded.

CoD franchise is limited by the console as much as MMO would be. It's not just the content that suffers, you can ask any PC FPS player and they'd say that consoles have "hurt" the experience from a PC players standpoint in one way or another.

But it makes more money, so, like, fuck the PC players.

Recent FFXI patch would love a word with you, that alone shows me that there is still some very stubborn people making decisions about content direction.

They're spending less money on the game because it is DYING regardless of what they do. That is not being stubborn- that is facing the facts as a company and acting on it. Spending as much money on a project that isn't delivering anymore as it did before would be stubborn.

[Dantrag]

Nobody does MMO's on consoles. Where do you pull these facts? XI did better than many if not most PC MMO's.

Except for SE. Just like XIV. It's programmed for a console. That's why all of the menu options are the way they are. It is not a mouse friendly game AT ALL.

Because online wasn't so integral part of the experience and people weren't used to paying extra after having purchased the game, its understandable why MMO's weren't done on consoles last gen. And neither were FPS's really. Only this gen they became so successful, before that the same mantra was repeated. "There's a reason FPS do better on PC than consoles".

Shooters do FINE on console because they do not require GIGS of data to be successful like a mmo. They do NOT require the same type of CONSTANT development. My point is that FFXI and XIV: ::::: WERE MADE FOR CONSOLE, NOT FOR PC ONLY :::::. That is ONE of the BIGGEST reasons it failed. My point is that they should NEVER be done for console because it severely limits what you can do from start to finish. XI would have been SO MUCH more amazing had it not been for the PS2. Would they have reached as many people, I'm going to go with no, would it have been a better, less limited game? I'm going to go with yes.

CoD franchise is limited by the console as much as MMO would be. It's not just the content that suffers, you can ask any PC FPS player and they'd say that consoles have "hurt" the experience from a PC players standpoint in one way or another.

But it makes more money, so, like, fuck the PC players.

FPS games in general have MUCH LESS requirements than MMOs, that is why they can be successful on consoles. Yes there are restrictions but they are not the same kinds of restrictions since FPS are not constantly evolving and adding content as much as they can. It's like Lordender said, WoW is still successful because they were able to continue adding features that console games would not be able to add.

[Hyan]

Except for SE. Just like XIV. It's programmed for a console. That's why all of the menu options are the way they are. It is not a mouse friendly game AT ALL.

There are a billion and one ways to make things work for both PC's and consoles. SE dropped the ball and they would have done so even if the game was made for PC exclusively.

Bullshit all around. PS3 is much less limited than PS2 is. The only issue is RAM and even that can be worked around much more efficiently than with PS2. There really is no more issue than with any generic FPS. And you know what? Bad developers put out bad FPS's on consoles that severely limit the PC versions as well. That's no indication of what a good developer can do with the platform.

[Dantrag]

There are a billion and one ways to make things work for both PC's and consoles. SE dropped the ball and they would have done so even if the game was made for PC exclusively.

Bullshit all around. PS3 is much less limited than PS2 is. The only issue is RAM and even that can be worked around much more efficiently than with PS2. There really is no more issue than with any generic FPS. And you know what? Bad developers put out bad FPS's on consoles that severely limit the PC versions as well. That's no indication of what a good developer can do with the platform.

There are ways to make other types of games work for both PC and consoles. MMO's are a completely different beast and WILL be limited by the console. It shows in XIV from day one. While I cannot argue that SE may have failed if it was a PC exclusive it may not have failed in the same ways and could have actually been a much more playable game. Again, they are already limiting themselves because they know it has to be released on the PS3 eventually. Had it been exclusive they could have completely changed the way the game played. Again, they limited themselves because they were planning to release it on the PS3 and made it more of a console mmo than PC mmo. This can be seen in the menu system and how the game is more playable with a PS3 or Xbox controller than with mouse and keyboard.

[Hyan]

MMO's are a completely different beast and WILL be limited by the console

No they aren't, and every genre is limited by the console.

If they hadn't got PS3 version in the pipes they wouldn't have had any reason to fix the game because any chance of a relaunch would have been a lost cause. PS3 is helping them here. The PC version would have been shit, denying it would be ridiculous. Slightly better controls but no future of any kind. Pick your devil. The game now is in much better condition than the PC exclusive version would have EVER been at launch. And after launch they would have simply closed the shop because relaunch is a no-go. Now there's a reason to fix the game, and that reason is PS3.

[Correction]

There are a billion and one ways to make things work for both PC's and consoles. SE dropped the ball and they would have done so even if the game was made for PC exclusively.

This is actually 100% true. SE's problem lies in the production pipeline, where they hire one manager to oversee every step of the process from concept -> asset creation -> systems programming -> testing and localization. This is a very slow process that so far has not allowed SE to get a game from announcement to shelves in anything less than four years for a very long time, and is something Wada acknowledged back in May. Given their bad production habits they've proven pretty incapable of prototyping and testing with any efficiency. It came to a frothing head in XIV, but it was definitely something we saw ominous signs of with the reports of wasted assets created for XIII. It isn't about the platforms they target, for sure.

[Hyan]

Wasted assets are pretty common in the industry, from what I've heard.

I've also heard that the XIV team was pissed at the XIII team for taking so long with their engine. So corners had to be cut.

Nothing 'official' tho, so adjust the bullshit meters accordingly.

[Dantrag]

No they aren't, and every genre is limited by the console.

If they hadn't got PS3 version in the pipes they wouldn't have had any reason to fix the game because any chance of a relaunch would have been a lost cause. PS3 is helping them here. The PC version would have been shit, denying it would be ridiculous. Slightly better controls but no future of any kind. Pick your devil. The game now is in much better condition than the PC exclusive version would have EVER been at launch. And after launch they would have simply closed the shop because relaunch is a no-go. Now there's a reason to fix the game, and that reason is PS3.

1) Consoles do not limit every genre.
2) You are assuming that XIV would play the exact same way it does now had it been PC exclusive. I'm saying the the possibility of it not playing the way it does now would have been there but with it being on a console guaranteed it that it WOULD play the way it does now. PS3 is helping the current iteration of XIV. I'm saying that XIV COULD have been a completely different game had it been PC only.
2a) Controls could have been different
2b) No repeating map features in every zone
2c) More dynamic mobs throughout every zone
2d) A non-menu driven system
2e) mouse friendly commands and mouse driven system

All of these are just an example of the things that could have been that are not possible due to the fact that it is a console mmo at heart.

This is actually 100% true. SE's problem lies in the production pipeline, where they hire one manager to oversee every step of the process from concept -> asset creation -> systems programming -> testing and localization. This is a very slow process that so far has not allowed SE to get a game from announcement to shelves in anything less than four years for a very long time, and is something Wada acknowledged back in May. Given their bad production habits they've proven pretty incapable of prototyping and testing with any efficiency. It came to a frothing head in XIV, but it was definitely something we saw ominous signs of with the reports of wasted assets created for XIII. It isn't about the platforms they target, for sure.

I am not arguing that SE would or would not have dropped the ball. I'm not saying that it would have been a success had it been PC only. I'm saying it would have had a much greater potential had it not been for the PS3. I'm not talking about SE's development mentality.

[Correction]

Wasted assets are pretty common in the industry, from what I've heard.

Common but not to the extent reported by SE.

According to the game's art director, Isamu Kamikokuryou, a substantial amount of these locations that were already running on actual development hardware ended up on the cutting room floor. How many locations? "More than enough to make another one [game]", says the art director.

For the sale of the finished product, he says, game volume and the entire work's game balance were taken into account for finished product. Square Enix was forced to make the difficult decision to cut these locations from the game.

It is so critical to read between the lines here; the final scope of the game was not decided until it was too late in the development process. The artists were told to make/model/texture huge areas and get them running on production hardware, but the systems programmers couldn't really make a game that made good use of it all without further compromise on gameplay quality.

I'm saying it would have had a much greater potential had it not been for the PS3. I'm not talking about SE's development mentality.

You're still overstating the impact of the platform choice. The development mentality is a much more fundamental problem holding the brand back.

[Hyan]

I'm saying that XIV COULD have been a completely different game had it been PC only.

So are you denying that it would have been shit either way? I did say it would be completely ridiculous, so I'll just repeat myself. If you aren't denying it, then what does it matter? PS3 is saving the game. PC exclusiveness would have killed the game right there and then. That's all that matters.

XIV COULD have been a completely different game had they actually made a good game for both platforms. But they didn't. So what the hell are we even discussing?

This potential FFXIV would have been completely acceptable for both PC and console audience. It would have had some compromises made to it but not enough to substantially weaken the experience. It would have been perfectly fine, like how any other genre on a console is perfectly fine regardless of what the Master Race thinks about them. It would have had some negative reception from people like you just like every other genre that came from PC to console has had, but realize that you are on the way of profits so you are irrelevant.

Nothing on that list would be impossible to pull off even with a console version. Only difference would be smaller zones but that is partly because the graphics are so good in the first place, and the game already is top of the line and blows many PC exclusive MMO's out of the water so it's also acceptable. There is a benefit and not just a downside.

Common but not to the extent reported by SE.

Yeah I can see what ya mean.

[Dantrag]

You're still overstating the impact of the platform choice. The development mentality is a much more fundamental problem holding the brand back.

Overall development is dictated by what it will be played on as far as the actual game itself goes. You have to develop for the lowest common denominator(PS3). Again, I am by no means disagree with you that SE didn't fuck up. But again, it could have been a completely different game had they not been developing it with the PS3 in mind and making it a console mmo.

Not that SE would, but they could have made a reskinned WoW with FFXI themes and Ifrit instead of Ragnaros and it would have done better than the current version. Hell, they could have reskinned XI and done better.

So are you denying that it would have been shit either way? I did say it would be completely ridiculous, so I'll just repeat myself. If you aren't denying it, then what does it matter? PS3 is saving the game. PC exclusiveness would have killed the game right there and then. That's all that matters.

I'm not denying the game would have been shit either way because the possibility is there. Always is, always will be, be it console or pc only or come out on all systems.

And yes I'm agreeing with you 100% that with the CURRENT XIV, PS3 is it's life line. It's "Re-Grand opening". PC exclusive would have killed it if it was what it is today. Which it may have been, may not have been. I'm saying that the limitations will always be there. And 3 years from now, we will have PS3 limitations, just like PS2 limitations.

[Hyan]

It would not have been a completely different game had they not been developing it with the PS3 in mind.

Maybe it would have had shittier graphics because no one can afford rigs good enough to run the game.

[Dantrag]

It would not have been a completely different game had they not been developing it with the PS3 in mind.

Maybe it would have had shittier graphics because no one can afford rigs good enough to run the game.

Top part: Unfortunately we will never know. But I disagree.
Bottom: I can run it on pretty damn high settings with a 2-3 year old machine so not really seeing how many people wouldn't be able to run it higher.

[Hyan]

Not different enough to matter. And that's not a guess.

PS3 may save the game. It never ruined it. MMO's doing 'better' on PC's is bullshit at worst, irrelevant at best.

You are simply the FPS dude of 5 years ago saying the genre will never be successful on consoles. Hint: It will be, and the first company to grab the market by the balls will have a goldmine like no other. It may not happen this gen, nor with this game, but during the next gen for sure.

[Elrina]

Japanese release dates, so sayeth Wikipedia. Offline, main sequence titles only, starting with IV (SNES onward).

Final Fantasy IV: July 19, 1991
Final Fantasy V: December 6, 1992
Final Fantasy VI: April 2, 1994
Final Fantasy VII: January 31, 1997
Final Fantasy VIII: February 11, 1999
Final Fantasy IX: July 7, 2000
Final Fantasy X: July 19, 2001
-
Final Fantasy XII: March 16, 2006
Final Fantasy XIII: December 17, 2009


This is my problem, really. Between July 19, 1991 (Nov. 23, '91 in NA) and July 19, 2001 (Dec. 20, '01 in NA), they released 7 main sequence Final Fantasy titles (6 in NA), and only 2 in the decade following. Whether any of us specifically enjoyed them or not, thought any individual title was amazing or horrible, the fact is that there were a lot more titles available to love or hate. And they all made money. And despite the time period, and any bullshit about the period they were made or nostalgia about them, the most widely loved and appreciated games came from that period that they were churning out another title, on average, just under every 1.5 years.

I realize that making HD games costs more and takes longer, I suppose, but that's still a pretty big difference, and it seems to me it isn't worth it. I know that Versus and Type-0 are on the horizon, and that their size and scope can be compared to the main sequence titles, but even including them (by their eventual release dates) the average is way off.

Personally, I just want more (offline, or at least, non-MMO) main sequence titles to enjoy, and to read about other people bickering whether or not they enjoyed them.

[Dantrag]

Not different enough to matter. And that's not a guess.

It's a guess as much as I'm guessing that the game could have been different.

PS3 may save the game. It never ruined it. MMO's doing 'better' on PC's is bullshit at worst, irrelevant at best.

PS3 may save it today. But it will hinder it down the road. How is it bullshit?

You are simply the FPS dude of 5 years ago saying the genre will never be successful on consoles. Hint: It will be, and the first company to grab the market by the balls will have a goldmine like no other. It may not happen this gen, nor with this game, but during the next gen for sure.

This generation of gamer is a tad different than the generation of past. I don't think that a mmo will be successful on the next gen system due to the kinds of games this generation prefers to our generation. Unfortunately, I think one of the best possibilities for an mmo on the console passed a LONG time ago, True Fantasy for the XBox.

[miokomioko]

Ideally, if it's going to be a cross-platform game, it needs to be designed for the stronger one, and watered down to run on the weaker one.

However, that requires much more development than simply making it for the weaker one and just porting it straight over for the stronger one... which seems to be the fucking norm around here and I hate it.

[Hyan]

It's a guess as much as I'm guessing that the game could have been different.

It would have been different. Not denying that.

And yes, that's not a guess either really. That's a fact. We are finally on the same page.

PS3 may save it today. But it will hinder it down the road. How is it bullshit?

Because they don't do better, and the only examples you have the problems aren't even related to the platform as much as production, management and other issues.

[Correction]

Final Fantasy IV: July 19, 1991 - Director, Original Concept H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy V: December 6, 1992 - Director, Original Concept H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy VI: April 2, 1994 - Producer, Original Concept H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy VII: January 31, 1997 - Producer, Original Concept H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy VIII: February 11, 1999 - Executive Producer H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy IX: July 7, 2000 - Producer, Original Concept H. Sakaguchi
Final Fantasy X: July 19, 2001 - Executive Producer H. Sakaguchi
-
Final Fantasy XII: March 16, 2006
Final Fantasy XIII: December 17, 2009

Hehehe