Tanaka Rage!

[dasva]

If you have tied the quality of your gaming experience to acquiring items, that is the price you pay. Because like with anything else, the world doesn't care about who has the best excuse for not doing something, they care about doing it

And who are you to tell me I can't have a Ridill because I'm too fucking stupid to stand on the feet? Who are you to tell me that I can't have this education because I don't have time to attend the classes because I have a job?

Etc. etc.

I said play content as well not just getting gear.

I didn't tell you that. But really your comparisons fail in comparison. There is actually nothing stopping you from standing on the feet. If you are too actually too stupid to do that you are too stupid to even get there. More a matter of not listening which is completely your choice. And the second one doesn't matter because that is just the way it is. It's the world telling you that.

This is a game with content created by people that can be changed like that. And considering your elitest ideas are clearly a very small minority and turn people away from the game and the people that can make these changes are interested in keeping people paying their subscriptions it's a good idea to actually allow casual players to accomplish something.

There are many ways to keep it so it's just as hard and takes as long (in terms of manhours played or at least logged on waiting) for 1 person playing here and there or 18 people playing non stop. I mean you can easily make instanced fights that get harder with more people... hell we have some of that

[mightyg]

1. cheat to get claim
2. wipe to hnm many many times over
3. learn how not to wipe/get enough gear to compensate for your groups inadequacies
4. keep claiming hnm over multiple years
5. claim others are bad when they wipe on the off chance your bots fail
6. continue to occasionally wipe anyways
7. steal the ls bank and jump servers

HNM working as intended.

[Mojo]

And there was the exact same dragon to fight in Limbus and Nyzul Isle. What was special about getting the chance to fight Fafnir besides that it was Fafnir and had Fafnir's lootpool?

Once again I'll repeat "Conceded this is not a skill test so much as a effort test. But isn't effort part of the equation too? One justification constantly used to defend Abyssea is that it makes it such that if someone puts in the work they will get the rewards. World spawns incorporated that by rewarding people who show up in force everyday with the majority of claims, but leaving open that possibility for anyone putting in the camping work to get the claim. We don't just give AF+1 seals to people who don't want to kill the mob or do the quests, why should Ridills and Adaberks have been given out to parts of the population that weren't willing to work go camp and kill Fafnir?" Moreover there was a much higher element of skill in world spawns that Abyssea. You wiped, others are waiting to take your stuff. Especially with no zombie atmas, cruor crutches, and what not

It literally took years until those versions of Fafnir were introduced. You can't use something that didn't exist yet as validation. Even after that point, the acquisition of gear is part of the game. Gear was handed out to those willing to spend time playing the lottery that was HNM Kings. There certainly was effort in those regards, but nobody is arguing that effort shouldn't be required. It's simply that in this case what you call effort I call a waste of time. Sitting around for 3 hours doing nothing hoping that you'll be the chosen one is simply pathetic.

I disliked the devaluation of the gear

I hate to be this guy, but you really need to stop for a moment and analyze what you're just asserted. Maybe wake up early tomorrow morning just to watch the sun rise, or some other kind of cathartic shit, I don't know.

[Gredival]

I said play content as well not just getting gear.

Once again, you just want to fight Fafnir, Turtle and Moose? Nyzul Isle. Want to fight the HQs? KS99. Want to fight the Wyrms? Bahamut Cometh.

If you are too actually too stupid to do that you are too stupid to even get there. More a matter of not listening which is completely your choice. And the second one doesn't matter because that is just the way it is. It's the world telling you that.

Do you think player skill is talent or learned? I think it's a mix of both. The analogy was to demonstrate a player who literally cannot accomplish content because of physical/mental limitations. The point is, no one cares about why you can't do something.

And considering your elitest ideas are clearly a very small minority and turn people away from the game and the people that can make these changes are interested in keeping people paying their subscriptions it's a good idea to actually allow casual players to accomplish something.

I've stated repeatedly this is about the game quality, not game popularity. Mass appeal and popularity are not indicators of merit. My argument is that competition and exclusivity of items makes the game better.

Tanaka puts vision as a game amongst whining of the players. Because sometimes, really, the players don't know best. Look at the type of shortbus suggestions given at the Official Forums.

And I never said casuals should accomplish NOTHING. I'm saying there should be a correlation between reward and difficulty with the plateau gear being exceptionally rare, coming from difficult content, and requiring open competition with all others striving for that gear.

I already pointed out old FFXI had a VARIETY of content, many of which was casual friendly. What everything always boiled down to was people wanted the best gear even if it came from the content they didn't like.

It literally took years until those versions of Fafnir were introduced. You can't use something that didn't exist yet as validation. Even after that point, the acquisition of gear is part of the game. Gear was handed out to those willing to spend time playing the lottery that was HNM Kings. There certainly was effort in those regards, but nobody is arguing that effort shouldn't be required. It's simply that in this case what you call effort I call a waste of time. Sitting around for 3 hours doing nothing hoping that you'll be the chosen one is simply pathetic.

And as I said earlier, I am completely open to alternative methods of claiming and gear distribution. I would not mind at all if Kings worked like Shikigami Weapon where there was a small window enough such that people could get it over and done with fast.

I would be completely fine, also, with some sort of "BATTLE ARENA" where people could simulate any content, any encounter, in the game. No rewards, but they get the experience of the fight.

My point bringing this content up is that people didn't complain about Kings because of lack of access to the content. They complained because they wanted the rewards.

If SE introduced a fight that was easily accessible (in terms of being able to try the challenge) and had top of the line rewards... but was stupidly ridiculously difficult to complete. I guarantee you that the bitching would shift from complaints about "accessibility" to how it was "too difficult." No matter what anyone says, it's always about the gear. More specifically, the best gear. Abyssea isn't popular for any reason besides the fact that there's a shitton of people that like having top of the line gear even if they aren't top of the line players. Bitching about "accessibility of content" has never been about the redundancy, time commitment, or annoyance of the pre-fight rituals -- it's about the "accessibility of gear" whether or not I can get it.

[NynJa]

"I didnt bot at kings, I never bot, I was banned cuz of windower"...yeah, ok, we've all heard that path.

[Gredival]

"I didnt bot at kings, I never bot, I was banned cuz of windower"...yeah, ok, we've all heard that path.

Uh banned? http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Sylph/Gredival

Last scanned two days ago.

[NynJa]

My point was...if you enjoyed kings, you had the backings of a bot. If you didnt bot, you were in a LS of botters. I wasnt saying you were banned or didnt play, I was just saying your statement of "I never bot" doesnt hold water.

Just because a drug dealer doesnt DO drugs, doesnt mean they're absolved of selling drugs.

[mallister]

lol ok, the guy with dring in his sig spouting self righteous bs for several pages while going NO GUYS I DIDN'T BOT. seriously, stop now.

[dasva]

Again you are saying to play content that came out years later and was no where near as fun or difficult. And regardless is different. Do you know how many people quit simple because they feel they've done everything they can do. I've watched entire Ls's do that as recent as a year or 2 ago to 5-6 years ago. Now obviously you can't do everything in the game so it really comes down to way too much content they were being excluded from no fault of their own. And yes I do call you being too stupid to push some buttons your own fault. If you have extreme mental disabilities to the point you can't do that You probably don't give a shit about drops or content but just like the music and shiny animation and would be just as amused by a bubblegum wrapper


And your anagoly again fails because you are comparing things that are actually impossible to artificially created challenges designed to punish lack of play time. Which is kinda ironic considering they don't actually get more money if you play more.

And that is merely your definition of merit in a game. Yours is clearly the minority view. And from a business standpoint popularity trumps everything

[mightyg]

It's also baffling that he thinks that kings made a better game. Maybe for 5% of the people that play the game. The rest lived in a system where a small group of mostly cheaters controlled large portions of the game economy because of the premium items and materials they had near exclusive access to. They didn't even have access to the challenge itself in most cases. Sky is prettymuch proof that nearly any linkshell with 20 people online at once can beat hnm content. If any average sized linkshell had access to kings whenever they wanted, 95% of them would do it. It's not some elite group of master players like Gredival thinks. He's upset at Abyssea because it made him wake up and realize he's not special.

[Gredival]

lol ok, the guy with dring in his sig spouting self righteous bs for several pages while going NO GUYS I DIDN'T BOT. seriously, stop now.

Go ask Truepandagod. He still posts on BG. He bought me WizBot and I refused to use it. He gave DKP for using it, he bought me it, and I still didn't use it.

if you enjoyed kings, you had the backings of a bot. If you didnt bot, you were in a LS of botters. I wasnt saying you were banned or didnt play, I was just saying your statement of "I never bot" doesnt hold water.

I already admitted that I knew botters were in my shell. But...

1. I tried taking my completely legit, afaik, shell that I founded in Sky into Kings. This shell, able to kill JoL, zerg Baha v.II, Kirin, and Dynamis Lord failed MISERABLY at Fafnir. An hour Fafnir with a full alliance. Two flails. Although we did manage eight KB's. I left because the shell didn't want to do Kings and I still did. Even when the Kings system worked against me, I still believed in the merits of the system.

2. Botting is a red herring. The number 1 factor in claiming is always bodies. All botting did was give you an even spread of claim timers. I don't deny that this probably helped. But six bots were not going to beat with any consistency a team of 18 players. Assuming equal bodies all paying attention and trying to claim, I wouldn't give the advantage to

3. I am completely fine with any number of aggressive anti-botting measures implemented to augment world spawns

[NynJa]

the only thing that abyssea really easymoded was AoA rr...duoiing something 50x over at 15-20 min a fight gets boring, its no longer a challenge. if u can do it once, twice, thrice...you know how to kill it.

[shepardG]

Lol, yeah gred you might never have bottled, but you sure as fuck castlots on the rewards that came from all of us botting for you. And your " I claimed kings plenty without a bot" argument is BS. I love ya red but your a sadist who needs to re-evaluate his life.

EDIT: also why did hyan get banned, and is it forever because that dude would take the stupidest sides just to argue.

[mallister]

lol, move on here folks, nothing else to see.

[Gredival]

Do you know how many people quit simple because they feel they've done everything they can do. I've watched entire Ls's do that as recent as a year or 2 ago to 5-6 years ago. Now obviously you can't do everything in the game so it really comes down to way too much content they were being excluded from no fault of their own.

And I've seen people quit because there's not enough content now post-Abyssea because the bar is set so low that everyone can accomplish things. This argument proves nothing.

And yes I do call you being too stupid to push some buttons your own fault. If you have extreme mental disabilities to the point you can't do that

How is the genetic lottery your own fault. It's completely arbitrary. Just like you not being born into enough wealth to have the luxury of enough free time to play video games all day.

Yours is clearly the minority view. And from a business standpoint popularity trumps everything

How many times do I have to emphasize that this is not about popularity? It's blatantly obvious I have a minority viewpoint.

[Gredival]

Lol, yeah gred you might never have bottled, but you sure as fuck castlots on the rewards that came from all of us botting for you. And your " I claimed kings plenty without a bot" argument is BS. I love ya red but your a sadist who needs to re-evaluate his life.

EDIT: also why did hyan get banned, and is it forever because that dude would take the stupidest sides just to argue.

Sinharvest claimed my D-Ring and he didn't bot. What other big item did I get from Zerg before Abyssea. Nlegs. Guess who claimed that Nidhogg Shep? Oh, MYSELF.

We evaluated who claimed and each time it was a non-botter Dimmu and Panda would always try to write it off, any time it was a botter they tried to lord it over the shell as in the botters put in more work. Guess what? In general, not just the 2-3 months you stayed in the shell, there was not a significant advantage for the botting side. The biggest advantage came from people like Dimmu being able to claim even though he would go to sleep.

But guess what? I put in the effort to stay up, to wake up, etc. at all hours of the night to claim because I didn't have a bot. Botting didn't do jack shit you couldn't do yourself with a little elbow grease.

I camped more long window HNMs than anyone, and I did it by going back every hour or thirty minutes to check the mob instead of just sleeping with a pop alarm. Did botting make it easier? Sure. But there was no benefit a bot offered that couldn't be matched by anyone willing to put in the work to do the content.

[NynJa]

EDIT: also why did hyan get banned, and is it forever because that dude would take the stupidest sides just to argue.

I dont want to put words in someones mouth, but I'd say someone who doesnt play ffxi offering insight on why the game sucks and what would make the game better...basically everything he posted in here was pretty grade A trolling.

[dasva]

And I've seen people quit because there's not enough content now post-Abyssea because the bar is set so low that everyone can accomplish things. This argument proves nothing.

Only because your counter makes no sense at all and looks like it actually sorta agrees with me. First of all post-abyssea bar is decently higher than it was. And second difficulty does not more content make. It just makes you take longer. Or as I stated stop you from even trying it effectively making it not content at all.

How is the genetic lottery your own fault. It's completely arbitrary. Just like you not being born into enough wealth to have the luxury of enough free time to play video games all day.

Way to take only the part that proves your point. But again if you are too stupid to do some simple task in the game you are too stupid to play the game or even care about what's in the game. Therefore using the the too dumb argument doesn't work. It's not that people are too dumb to do something it's they don't care, too lazy, and/or distracted etc. Things under their control.

How many times do I have to emphasize that this is not about popularity? It's blatantly obvious I have a minority viewpoint.

How many times do I have to point out that it is about popularity simply by the fact that your belief that it isn't is the minority

[Byrthnoth]

Making events so inaccessible that the majority of the player base never experiences them is a dumb game design, pure and simple. I bet there has never been a time when 50% of the people on your server have killed Fafnir, let alone Nidhogg, KB, and Aspid. I personally went to DA fewer than two dozen times before they switched it to a forced pop (most of them waiting to buy N.Head) and only killed Faf/Nidhogg twice each pre-patch. For a long time, I couldn't even search the zone because I had literally never zoned in. They made the whole zone essentially just for the Fafnir/Nidhogg fight, and most people had no way to do it and no reason to go there.

My justification for 150 plates would be this:
* If the number required dropped to 150, the price per plate would go up because more people would actually try to complete the trial.
* Increased price would create increased drive to do Voidwatch Tier 3s, specifically Zilart path.
(fringe benefit) Increased drive to do shout Voidwatch would enhance the endgame experience in FFXI.
* With an increased price (I'd bet it evens out around 300~400k each at 150 per Empyrean), you could expect many people who played enough to make one or more Empyreans in the first place to finish one Empyrean before the next update.
(fringe benefit, Relics are no longer the "easier option," and people can make crazier amounts of gil doing Voidwatch)
* Don't add an extra enhancement to Empyreans. Leave it at just the base damage +2 stat.
* Next update, do a similar thing with the 99 trial and add Heavy Metal/Pouches to the lower tier NMs so that people can complete second/third Empyreans to 95, or more casual players can complete their first one.

etc.

[Gredival]

First of all post-abyssea bar is decently higher than it was.

What? Tons of people quit finish content so fast now. The game is boring. You get AF3 on all your jobs. Then you go make an Empyrean on all your jobs. Eventually you get to the point where all there's left is Gotta Catch Em All on relics. Pre-Abyssea, fully gearing a job was an endeavor. You wanted 3 years of goals to accomplish? Level WAR and go get your Berk and Ridill.

Way to take only the part that proves your point. But again if you are too stupid to do some simple task in the game you are too stupid to play the game or even care about what's in the game. Therefore using the the too dumb argument doesn't work. It's not that people are too dumb to do something it's they don't care, too lazy, and/or distracted etc. Things under their control.

I took the only part that was relevant to the subpoint. Should people be excluded from content because they have rl jobs and can't camp 24/7. My argument is that there are tons of reasons out of our control that determine what we can and can't do in the world. The world doesn't care about having the best excuse.

Being born without the prerequisite skill to succeed at content is just as arbitrary as being born into enough privilege to have the time to devote to the game.

Moreover you don't work 24/7, there are at least twelve hours in the day that you would be able to camp IF you are willing to. Refusal to camp during those times is your own fault.

How many times do I have to point out that it is about popularity simply by the fact that your belief that it isn't is the minority

1. My argument is that the *game* was better pre-Abyssea
2. Better isn't determined by popularity. I used the literature to illustrate this; Twilight vs. Ulysses, the Recherche, the Illyiad

C. It doesn't matter how many of you like Abyssea.

most people had no way to do it and no reason to go there.

If you want gear or to experience the content, go level a job an HNMLS needed and apply. Plain and simple.