Tanaka Rage!

[NynJa]

And how do you control the time things pop so that your points are shit compared to the jobless wonders when something you want drops?

skillup club with warp cudgels...till rage changed that

[Rehn]

Nothing against the guy, but not surprised gred took the stance he did in this thread. Here's 2 other threads he was involved in and I have to say, they are about as wall-of-text as the ones in this thread:

Regarding TERA PVP vs. PVE

Regarding killing your own teammate because he did something you don't like in SC2

[Gredival]

the quote in your sig makes you look even more like a tool. and i think i'll stop feeding the, well, i don't really wanna call Gredival a troll, because i think he actually believes his own bs, but yeah, um, this isn't going anywhere.

See there's this thing in logic where you attack premises or attack the logical flow between the premises and the conclusions. Personally attacks are generally deemed to do nothing and are seen as filler content when someone has nothing to add except what's coming out of their ass.

So:
Kings (botting, etc.) was once popular and deemed correct by the majority, does that mean it was right?

amidoinitrite?

No because I have never ever relied on popularity at any point to defend the World Spawn system. I'm saying it made FFXI a better game, even if it was less popular.

Presuming you're an average joe with an average job...
wake up 7am, shower, freshen up, get to work by 9, work till 5, get home by 6, warm up microwave dinner and camp KB for 2 hours (8pm), move and camp faf for 2 hours (10 pm), move camp and camp aspi for 2 hours (midnight)...leaves 7 hours to xp / merit...
but where do you sleep? And do you really want to be a monotonous loser whos 24 hour cycle is pre-arranged to follow a fucking video game? Wait, what do you do when kings are at night, or...omg...durring your working hours? USE THEM SICK DAYS

You sleep instead of XP'ing and Meriting? You also have free time in between the 30 minute windows to watch TV or otherwise unwind during the four hours to camp Kings?

Or you make the decision you don't want a Ridill/Berk. It's up to you. Just don't bitch if you want it and aren't willing to camp. My point is that if you want it, you should do what you need to in order to get it. If you aren't willing to give up your XP/merit time, that's on you.

That's also assuming those windows were nicely placed so he could camp them and the windows not occur while you're at work.

And I don't know of any shell that kicked you for not being at every single Fafnir.

Not even close to true. You just had to work when the window was open and/or work so much that you litterally got home ate some food maybe got a shower before going to bed then getting up got ready and gone back to work. And yes I've done that and before you go get less sleep sometimes it was so little time allowed for sleep it was barely bigger than the pop window itself. So even assuming I just logged/afked there and the window happened to be during that time and I had an ls that would let me join in with them right then and then actually let me lot those few times I could get in I still couldn't because I kinda liked keeping my job.

And before you question yes I have worked 14-20 hours a day for 7 days or once for a month solid. And no there wasn't awesome overtime and it wasn't my choice

All I can say is that it sucks for you. But Harvard doesn't give admissions to students who have the best excuse for not having a good SAT score, or the best excuse for having poor grades.

And how do you control the time things pop so that your points are shit compared to the jobless wonders when something you want drops?

Well imo they camped more, they should get it first? That seems like basic rewarding of effort here.

Sure it's harder for you, not denying that, but there is always opportunity . The decision to simply not do content is your own.

Nothing against the guy, but not surprised gred took the stance he did in this thread. Here's 2 other threads he was involved in and I have to say, they are about as wall-of-text as the ones in this thread:

Regarding TERA PVP vs. PVE

Regarding killing your own teammate because he did something you don't like in SC2

I argued my stance on World Spawns and Kings previously on BG already on the Notorious Monster (Where's my Leaping Lizzy?) thread and all over KI.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/992...g-lizzy!/page6

[mallister]

lol, the hits just keep on comin.

to be fair your logic is fine, its your premise that's flawed and your outlook that's just fucked. but really it looks like you're at least a consistent tool and this isn't an isolated incident.

[Byrthnoth]

Well imo they camped more, they should get it first? That seems like basic rewarding of effort here.

Sure it's harder for you, not denying that, but there is always opportunity . The decision to simply not do content is your own.

Are you really that dumb? Jobless White Mage would level (or decide to level, depending on the shell's system) Warrior faster than E.bodies drop. Some drops were simply unobtainable unless:
A) You lucked out and joined a young shell, then happened to have enough points/be in the right position when one dropped off the first Nid you guys did.
B) You don't have a job and can compete because you make more than half the camps.

If you play 6 hours a day and have a constrained schedule due to your job, you could expect to make a quarter of the camps while being 100% dedicated to kings. Those are the people who are still popping Fafnirs now trying to get Nids for their E.bodies.

[dasva]

All I can say is that it sucks for you. But Harvard doesn't give admissions to students who have the best excuse for not having a good SAT score, or the best excuse for having poor grades.

Again you are arguing your ability when we've already established this has nothing to do with ability. Sure they wont give admissions to students who don't meet acedemic requirements. They also wont disqualify you for having a job or not doing all your schoolwork in groups of 18 and be the lucky 1 person that the group finishes it for first because the schoolwork was designed to take significantly more manhours than there was till the due date.

Again it's not the level of the requirement that people are against. It's the requirements that disqualify you for things that have nothing to do with the game itself. Games are by their nature designed to be played. If there was this kind of time requirement not just in shear amount but having to repeatidly be there for a long time at very certain times and gather friends who get nothing to get together and sit around with you each to accomplish things... well people wouldn't really buy them

[Gredival]

Are you really that dumb? Jobless White Mage would level (or decide to level, depending on the shell's system) Warrior faster than E.bodies drop. Some drops were simply unobtainable unless:
A) You lucked out and joined a young shell, then happened to have enough points/be in the right position when one dropped off the first Nid you guys did.
B) You don't have a job and can compete because you make more than half the camps.

If you play 6 hours a day and have a constrained schedule due to your job, you could expect to make a quarter of the camps while being 100% dedicated to kings. Those are the people who are still popping Fafnirs now trying to get Nids for their E.bodies.

Then go with your 6-8 friends on the times that you CAN camp. HQ Kings were easily doable with that few people with the advantages of Group II merits, Sea Gear, the 2H patch.

There is always opportunity, even if it's slim. I don't think the game is obligated to assure every player a good chance of getting the best gear.

Again it's not the level of the requirement that people are against. It's the requirements that disqualify you for things that have nothing to do with the game itself.

But this is what I'm getting at with the Games are by their nature designed to be played. If there was this kind of time requirement not just in shear amount but having to repeatidly be there for a long time at very certain times and gather friends who get nothing to get together and sit around with you each to accomplish things... well people wouldn't really buy them

You argue World Spawns are flawed because they exclude players from participation in content for reasons not under their control (e.g. the need to work a 20hr job that prohibits your ability to play in such a way that you can't do this content).

My response is that this is not an issue the game can concern itself with. Life is filled with opportunities where you will be excluded by some factor out of your control. It's about who can and who can't do X, not about who has the best excuse for not doing X.

The example with Harvard was meant to illustrate this. We are born with general levels of intelligence; they can be cultivated and shaped, but none of us is going to be as smart as Steven Hawking or Albert Einstein just by wanting it bad enough and by trying hard Similarly no one here is going to get as good at basketball as LeBron, or MJ, or Kobe just by trying hard and wanting it. You pull the short straw on the genetic lottery, too bad for you.

You try to say it's different because the reason Kings exclude people doesn't have anything to do with why Harvard excludes students. Jobs don't have anything to do with the game, but intellect has something to do with getting into Harvard.

But my point is that it's an unfortunate circumstance (losing at the genetic lottery) that robs you of the opportunity to go to Harvard or play in the NBA. And that's totally out of your control. JUST like it's out of your control that you are in economic circumstances such that you can't camp every and all HNM windows.

At that the extreme, we have people who simply don't have the opportunity to play at all. Should they be given free accounts with all the stuff they don't have the time to go do?

The game can't be concerned with that.

[Byrthnoth]

Then go with your 6-8 friends on the times that you CAN camp. HQ Kings were easily doable with that few people with the advantages of Group II merits, Sea Gear, the 2H patch.

There is always opportunity, even if it's slim. I don't think the game is obligated to assure every player a good chance of getting the best gear.

Oh, so now we're back to your earlier statements which were:
* Bots are a red herring, what matters is number of bodies (kind of BS, btw).
* Just don't do the content (but the way the content is designed isn't inherently exclusive)

You're just full of shit, lol.

[Gredival]

Oh, so now we're back to your earlier statements which were:
* Bots are a red herring, what matters is number of bodies (kind of BS, btw).
* Just don't do the content (but the way the content is designed isn't inherently exclusive)

You're just full of shit, lol.

So how about you fucking dispute those points instead of whining about how that's not the way you like it. What evidence do you have that three botters will consistently outclaim 18 legit campers? I've never seen it.

I was in a server where NASA failed horribly and a server where NASA took over. The difference wasn't everyone running out and buying APP or Wizbot. It was whether people went out and fought for Fafnir or decided "We're gonna stop Fafnir cuz it's stupid to compete against NASA"

You don't want to do the task, you don't get the reward. It's a pretty simple policy

[Koyangi]

Claiming Kings isn't a competition the way you're making it out to be. A competition implies there's skill behind the action of camping the King, as in getting the claim. Yes, anyone can wipe on the HNM, but the claim portion, showing up with more people to increase your chances of claiming isn't skill. A lottery isn't a competition. In sports, people compete with skill and there's a referee to ensure there's no cheating, and if you break a rule there's a penalty for doing so. That's true competition, and yes there's 1 Super Bowl winner in the end, and it was indeed earned. Even if you fix botting/cheating which you admit is the real problem, it doesn't change World Spawns needing to be claimed, which isn't a skill, it's a lottery.

[Animusprime]

I love the people in my shell who do/have in the past claimed to "not bot" and be "proud of it" while all the shit they have/had on was because of bots.

I love it when people that bot still have their accounts while my duping items....

@Gredival

The problems with Fafnir, Behemoth, Adamastoise was and always has been a combination of two things. The waiting, and the other people who were their for anyone else but your group's or your interests. What could have been and/or what SE could/should/will do with the new HNM's is and always has been their decision. The player base will adapt/quit/move on as they see fit. Debating why you think Kings was a better system for loot on this forum is as much of a waste of time as camping kings was back than. None of the time spent back than matters now, nor will these opinions of how it was change what it is.

I understand your argument about how keeping something the best includes keeping it out of reach, yet I find myself wondering why should this be adopted into games such as this. If we were purely looking at it from the standpoint of an ideal world people would love to be in, Square-Enix has failed on many fronts. This isn't because Square-Enix did everything wrong, it's just the unpredictable reality of people.

In my opinion the only statistic that matters beyond the experience of fun playing the game, is this. Progression. If you were to take the amount of time spent virtually waiting for Fafnir, add it to the amount of time spent farming dynamis currency, than divide it by the number of people averaging those events. What do you get? A horrible game. Yes it wasn't "easy" for the "common" player. They had alternative choices. It was still in my opinion a huge time sink that left a select few who used/didn't use every advantage they had to get what they think they wanted.

Now when that exclusiveness is gone and somehow diminished how do you feel about those nights dragging us out there? (Granted if we listened to you we might have avoided our bans. That's still not an excuse, nor do I think you actually would care to see it that way.)

In short: Let it go bro.

[Gredival]

Claiming Kings isn't a competition the way you're making it out to be. A competition implies there's skill behind the action of camping the King, as in getting the claim. Yes, anyone can wipe on the HNM, but the claim portion, showing up with more people to increase your chances of claiming isn't skill. A lottery isn't a competition. In sports, people compete with skill and there's a referee to ensure there's no cheating, and if you break a rule there's a penalty for doing so. That's true competition, and yes there's 1 Super Bowl winner in the end, and it was indeed earned. Even if you fix botting/cheating which you admit is the real problem, it doesn't change World Spawns needing to be claimed, which isn't a skill, it's a lottery.

1. I've already said that it's completely possible to improve on the system with alternative claiming systems. The important issue is the server wide spawn conditions that pit players against each other.

2. I don't approve of botting because it removes competition. It isn't a competition when people are cheating. However I dispute the efficacy of botting. Assuming 18 legit claimers vs 18 botters I would say there's no more than a 65-35 advantage to the botters. Yes that sucks, but it's not undefeatable. Moreover that advantage is only so high because the gains from botting improve with more bodies because the purpose of botting is to spread your claim timers to give a better chance of defeating lock-out, not to automatically win.

3. There is validation in the claiming system in that it rewards consistent camping. That measures, in a way, effort/dedication to the content. Each day is random, but at the same time, you have a higher probability of claiming when you bring more people and camp the most days. Therefore in the long run there is a test of effort (coming every day) and a test of skill (beating it so someone else doesn't take it). The effort part is important because the argument for Abyssea is that people see a return on their dedication, so shouldn't the most consistent campers be rewarded with a higher probability of claiming?

[dasva]

So how about you fucking dispute those points instead of whining about how that's not the way you like it. What evidence do you have that three botters will consistently outclaim 18 legit campers? I've never seen it.

It's hard to dispute your points if you just switch to other ones that contradict your own previous points in an attempt to dispute said disputes. How about you stick to a clear concise and complete set of points that aren't contradictory first then we'll dispute them. Then if you try to do that again we'll know just how full of shit your supposed reasons are even more than we do now

[mallister]

you approved enough to be in at least a couple of shells that botted, and lotted drops gained by botting, this we've had from folks that were in these shells with you. so botting's not ok, but leeching off them is?

[Gredival]

Now when that exclusiveness is gone and somehow diminished how do you feel about those nights dragging us out there? (Granted if we listened to you we might have avoided our bans. That's still not an excuse, nor do I think you actually would care to see it that way.)

In short: Let it go bro.

If you are asking me what would I have done knowing where XI would go where it has now? I would have just quit XI or I wouldn't have started at all. But my decisions given what I knew at the time? I do not regret camping Kings. I do not regret that chasing Kings ultimately meant leaving Maverick. I do not regret leaving Asura to find a shell that would camp Kings without NASA.

I feel if it was a waste of time, it was because the players treated it in such a way to make it a waste of time. Regrs wanted to dick off and not come to Nidhogg. Then we claim it and all of the sudden it obviously should have been his Dalmatica? If whoever it was wants to complain that camping KB was a waste of time, maybe he shouldn't have been crafting during the window and perhaps we would have gotten that claim to make it worth our time.

I made the choice that I didn't want to do Salvage because the content system was terrible. I'd rather not get the reward than be forced to do such putrid instances. I expect the same willingness to bite the bullet from Anti-Kings. You decide you don't like the content, then you deal with not having the reward or you deal with doing it anyway for the gear.

[Gredival]

It's hard to dispute your points if you just switch to other ones that contradict your own previous points in an attempt to dispute said disputes. How about you stick to a clear concise and complete set of points that aren't contradictory first then we'll dispute them. Then if you try to do that again we'll know just how full of shit your supposed reasons are even more than we do now

Point out this contradiction.

I said botting was a red herring, but I never said botting didn't give any advantage at all. I dispute the assertion that it's "POINTLESS" to try Kings content without botting. The number one factor in claiming is always bodies and consistency. You bring the most people, the most days, you get the most claims. You bring the most people on only one day? You get that day's claim maybe and not the days you skip. You bring a few people, a few days, you don't get many. But for fuck sake go out and try. As long as you have claimers you have a chance to be the first claim after lock-out.

you approved enough to be in at least a couple of shells that botted, and lotted drops gained by botting, this we've had from folks that were in these shells with you. so botting's not ok, but leeching off them is?

Go back and read my response to Shepard. Botting may have given us an advantage, but if it did it was not huge. What gave Zerg an advantage is we came with 25-30 people and the next largest shell might have 15. We had a NASA shell come, and their super bot didn't allow them to dominate us. Why? We had more numbers.

You don't have to bot to succeed. I didn't. I got my Hecatomb Cap in a completely legitimate shell as well. I got my Dring and my Hecatomb Subligar in Zerg, which botted, but not from botted claims. If you want to be in a shell that doesn't bot at all? Find one. I didn't care about that anymore at the point I joined Zerg because I prioritized skill and dedication to doing Kings.

If you want gear, go out and get it. If you want to do it a certain way, then do it that way. But you live with doing the content to the best of your ability. Whatever burdens you impose on yourself, and whatever burdens imposed on you from life, are there. But unfair or not, do it or don't do it and shut the fuck up instead of asking for it to be given to you.

Moreover, the drops I got from Zerg in Kings were all drops that came from legit claims.

[Koyangi]

Without botting it still isn't a competition. In a perfect scenario where noone is botting, let's say 100 people spamming a macro to claim an HNM, it goes to 1 random lucky person, it takes no skill. A competition implies there's skill involved in the process. Showing up as often as possible/camping as much as possible isn't a skill, it's an effort to show up consistently. The law of averages says you'll claim/kill more that way, but that's called having tenacity and time on your side, not skill.

[NynJa]

Hey now, drugs r bad mkay, and so is selling drugs mkay...but when your drug dealer friend buys you a new ps3 with his drug money, its a-ok

[Gredival]

Without botting it still isn't a competition. In a perfect scenario where noone is botting, let's say 100 people spamming a macro to claim an HNM, it goes to 1 random lucky person, it takes no skill. A competition implies there's skill involved in the process. Showing up as often as possible/camping as much as possible isn't a skill, it's an effort to show up consistently. The law of averages says you'll claim/kill more that way, but that's called having tenacity and time on your side, not skill.

I already answered this pretty thoroughly. I don't know what else to do except reword my previous reply to be more thorough.

1. I've already said that it's completely possible to improve on the system with alternative claiming systems that emphasize skill. The most important facet of the Kings system imo is the server wide spawn conditions that pit players against each other. I am not beholden, in any way, to the FFXI lockout claiming system, if there is an alternative World Spawn system which captures the zero-sum aspect where players are functionally limited by their opponents cross-camping them.

2. There is validation in the claiming system in that it rewards consistent camping. That measures, in a way, effort/dedication to the content. Each day is random, but at the same time, you have a higher probability of claiming when you bring more people and camp the most days. Therefore in the long run there is a test of effort (coming every day) and a test of skill (beating it so someone else doesn't take it). The effort part is important because the argument for Abyssea is that people see a return on their dedication, so shouldn't the most consistent campers be rewarded with a higher probability of claiming?

[Animusprime]

The first, and was your response was what I was trying to point out.

I made the choice that I didn't want to do Salvage because the content system was terrible. I'd rather not get the reward than be forced to do such putrid instances. I expect the same willingness to bite the bullet from Anti-Kings. You decide you don't like the content, then you deal with not having the reward or you deal with doing it anyway for the gear.

Exactly what is true about a lot of life's decisions. Still its more of the question of if this is a valid way to curve player's equipment. SE has seen to it that progression has killed the old way and imported a new. Some of the gear of old has withstood this test and most likely will continue to stay that way. Abyssea will fall down the totem pole just as much as dual wielding warriors have if this game is to have a future.