Tanaka Rage!

[Animusprime]

It's true, he even left dynamis to watch a summoner kite our claim into a flailing ball of: "YOU LOSE"

Second thought it had to deal with a blockaid issue not being on that really made us lose the claim. Still had tank healer and melee engaged when it went pink. SMN kiting after getting hate was still funny.

[Gredival]

I thought it was Darwi sitting on the tail while she sang.

Animus why don't you play again? I know it sucked losing your account but the level cap raise pretty much means everything you lost is a moot point.

[Animusprime]

I thought it was Darwi sitting on the tail while she sang.

Animus why don't you play again? I know it sucked losing your account but the level cap raise pretty much means everything you lost is a moot point.

Alexandrite doesn't grown on tree's. *You know what they should let gardeners grow alexandrites mythic update spoiled?*

I do play, still on Asura just as a different account. I came back for *ready for this* abyssea. Imagine that?

I still think for the time spent/bang for your buck the best days of FFXI came within the last couple of years. Excluding the fun time back then, this is much more manageable now with the core group from before. Hell Regrs even leveled white mage. Hell even I lvled white mage.

Kings were fun while they lasted but the further away we get from them the better this game feels to me.

[Gredival]

Hell Regrs even leveled white mage. Hell even I lvled white mage.

Kings were fun while they lasted but the further away we get from them the better this game feels to me.

I beat you both, and he is supposed to eat a hat because of it.

For me it's the reverse. Nothing ever has, and I doubt ever will, feel like getting my Hecatomb Subligar or Cap. Not anything in Abyssea. Not anything in Voidwatch. Not my Mandau.

I've lost 15+ people I knew on Sylph *because of* Abyssea. A little over one year ago I still *loved* this game. Now I just log on to do events, then log off right away afterwards to practice SCII. I've spent more time on BG today talking about old XI than playing new XI.

[machiko]

You don't have to bot to succeed. I didn't. I got my Hecatomb Cap in a completely legitimate shell as well. I got my Dring and my Hecatomb Subligar in Zerg, which botted, but not from botted claims. If you want to be in a shell that doesn't bot at all? Find one. I didn't care about that anymore at the point I joined Zerg because I prioritized skill and dedication to doing Kings.

King drops were so rare, the amount of points people had and the claim system was such that even if you did get YOUR drops from legit claims the fact your LS was heavily into botting meant everyone infront of you got their shit which allowed you to have a chance at lotting them in the first place. The ring at least is directly because you joined a botting LS, in a legit shell the waiting lists alone would of made sure you got almost nothing of what you obtained via botting.

People were so retarded about the whole I'm legit issue while sitting in a nest full of botters, joining a bot ls without botting is worse than botting yourself. You are just getting all the gains from the botting but taking none of the risks, putting it all on your shell mates.

[Colenzo]

If you weren't botting you weren't trying. If you weren't trying and you were camping kings then you were fucking stupid.

[IronPandemonium]

If you weren't botting you weren't trying. If you weren't trying and you were camping kings then you were fucking stupid.

stamp of approval

[arus2001]

As I said regarding Tanaka, he put a vision for the game above preferences of the players. And I argue this does not make him wrong.

Problem here is you're acting like they have to be mutually exclusive. Whine about the good game vs. better business model all you want, but if the latter leads to more people being happy, I dare say it's a better game for everyone since more money translates to better potential reinvestment and that reinvestment leads to new and more content which perpetuates the cycle as long as people are happy. Happy people, in turn, are for more likely to give good word on the game, which can translate into even more subscribers and profit.

Sadly, this never really happened for XI because while the money may have been there in its early days, the vision of one man held it back with the array of "Working as intended!", "We'll look into it!", and "PS2 limitations!". If Tanaka wanted to be an Artiste, and thus convey his glorious vision, an MMO isn't a good canvas through the very concept of adapt or die that this genre is rooted in.

[Lordender]

God some people on this forum are so retarded, people acting like it took skill to claim a mob and pray for a drop, thats ALL this game ever was at the end of the day, some people act like we're talking about hardmodes on WoW where only 1-2% of the entire endgame community can beat the content before its nerfed, lol.

I saw complete retards running around with ridills, ebodies, D.rings back in the day because the drop rates were kind to them after a lucky claim, you know, the same retards that would stand there nuking Nidhogg/KB/Aspid in dalmatica's while sporting a loquacious earring, again, how is this any different than a retard doing retarded shit in AF3+2? On my server none of that king gear was rare, all the old jp ls's were full of that king gear before einherjar existed along NA ls's, it doesn't change anything. Baddies will be baddies regardless of how exclusive gear is and I just laugh my ass off at all the butthurt people over abyssea.

Some people have really selective memories with their rose-tinted nostalgic classes on.

[shepardG]

As I said regarding Tanaka, he put a vision for the game above preferences of the players. And I argue this does not make him wrong.

It just makes him shitty at his job, which is to sell a subscription based video game to as many people as possible.

Also I was with zerg for about a year and half sexy pants, but unlike you, when the game wasn't fun for me (aka: you and abyssea) I quit, instead of forcing myself to do something I don't like.

[Gredival]

but if the latter leads to more people being happy, I dare say it's a better game for everyone since more money translates to better potential reinvestment and that reinvestment leads to new and more content which perpetuates the cycle as long as people are happy. Happy people, in turn, are for more likely to give good word on the game, which can translate into even more subscribers and profit.

...

If Tanaka wanted to be an Artiste, and thus convey his glorious vision, an MMO isn't a good canvas through the very concept of adapt or die that this genre is rooted in.

The first part is just argument for business though. Everything rests on the premise that popularity is an indicator of merit.

I could rehash why I think that's not true but I think this is pretty much sums everything up:

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=267

It's not only XI, but the industry in general that is evolving. Gaming is no longer some underground activity only nerds do, it's increasingly mainstream and a multimillion dollar industry. Moreover the population that grew up on gaming is getting older, they are less of an important market. That requires retailoring the games to fit modern tastes.

This explains why we have half a dozen FPS that look exactly the same and gaming companies racing to the bottom lowering barriers to entry in order to tap a larger market: http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-6-mo...ideo-games_p2/

It just makes him shitty at his job, which is to sell a subscription based video game to as many people as possible.

Also I was with zerg for about a year and half

He is a designer, not a salesman. In copyright terms a video game designer is equivalent to a creator, an author, an artist, etc. of any other creative product. So his job is to make a game. What makes him good is making a good game, just like what makes a good musician is someone who makes good music, or a good author writes good books, etc.

That seems like way too much, but to be honest time flew when you're having fun (i.e. back when the game was good). Or maybe you weren't very active which would explain why you bombed into the negative so much and then complained that you would never be able to lot items.

If you weren't botting you weren't trying. If you weren't trying and you were camping kings then you were fucking stupid.

I think I tried a lot harder by waking up and camping, or checking back every 30mins or an hour, compared to the people that just paid Maury some money and went "lol going to sleep good luck"

[AntB]

Do you want to play the RL card? The fact that I enjoy my games a certain way doesn't mean anything.

And I didn't love it because *I* was top dog. I already said I loved Kings content, even when my shell could not do Kings and lost claim every single day.

Ask Animus. We had a terrible claim rate. And even when the shell wasn't camping, I would be in Aery for the window in the offchance I could personally claim and give it to someone.

No offence bro, but you sound like a lonely fuckin loser that is crying about not being 1 of the top dogs anymore because everyone and there nan can get the new shit now. How the fuck can you want to go back and sit in Aery everyday, been there done that grown the fuck up, I think someone else should too.

MMOs are changing, noone wants to sit there all day and pray for a claim. This shit is more casual now because it draws people that actually have lives into the games also instead of thinking "Fuck I aint playin this shit, its impossible to get decently geared".

I had alot more fun in the old days with kings sure, up at 4am running like my ass is on fire to claim a Tiamat with just me on PLD and a RDM while the few awake in the LS could attempt to get there if they wasn't fallin asleep already. But just like most people that have played this game for years, I've grown up and don't fancy stayin awake until 4am in the morning. I can just chill with afew friends and get shit done low-man without the need of a full LS, which most times you just got shafted anyways.

[ronin sparthos]

If you want competition in an MMO, ask for fucking PvP instead of pseudo-PvP which is what worldspawns were for the longest time. There's nothing wrong with encouraging healthy competition but let that be solved in an arena where people can you know... demonstrate gaming skills rather than who caves in on buying a bot first.

lol@FFXI ever having reasonable PvP though.

All the slogfest of kings showed is that Tanaka is deplorable online game director more interested in feeding his own ego rather than creating a world where customers get an enjoyable experience.

[Lyall]

Kings had a server limited spawn in a way that almost required direct confrontation with another shell. Rewards were zero-sum. You did not have a situation like in Abyssea where multiple groups could easily accomplish gearing multiple people. There were maybe five Adaberks dropped per month and the competition to get them was fierce both inter-shell and cross-shell. You had 200+ people waiting on a single night for the same thing.

I'm not saying the system was perfect, but this alone made it far superior to anything that has been introduced since Abyssea.

It was only good because it was exclusive, and now that everyone can do things and get what they want the system is fucked up. I am a special snowflake who worked harder than everyone else and deserve to be looked at as such, and now that everyone can go out and get what they want the game is ruined.

The other day I found out someone who went to school for something different than me got a job paying more! Real life is fucking ruined, what's the point of my Obscure Mesopotamian Art Psychology degree when someone who's jumping on the Law School Bandwagon can just go and make more than me? I worked harder than he did, it's not fair that what I got years ago is worse than what we have now.

Also whats the deal with smartphones everyone knows rotary is where its at

[shepardG]

Ooh Gred, when im done having a blast at haloween horror nights ill respond to your response, but if they haven't taught you this little gem in law school it would behoove you to do so. Win the argument lose the jury. I stayed at or towards the negative for so long because I lotted bullshit drops and was barely on for any of the DKP generating events, because I hated sitting at kings or ixion sandworm. Those events were great for a kid in law school who can AFK to study.

[Colenzo]

I think I tried a lot harder by waking up and camping, or checking back every 30mins or an hour, compared to the people that just paid Maury some money and went "lol going to sleep good luck"

well you'd be wrong, very wrong

[Gredival]

If you want competition in an MMO, ask for fucking PvP instead of pseudo-PvP which is what worldspawns were for the longest time. There's nothing wrong with encouraging healthy competition but let that be solved in an arena where people can you know... demonstrate gaming skills rather than who caves in on buying a bot first.

lol@FFXI ever having reasonable PvP though.

I already stated that I would permit open world PvP during PvE if it was up to me to design a perfect system. But XI isn't optimized for PvP the same way that say WoW is.

PvP in FFXI was always an afterthought and it suffered terribly because of it. FFXI's engine is terrible for PvP. The interface is just slow -- FFXI PvE encounters are supposed to be hard due to the coordination and intricacy. That's fine for PvE because PvE encounters test group play skill sets. It's a poor way to conduct PvP though. It's not a system where high APM or good reaction times would make you much better of player. Ballista isn't decided by the player as much as the matchups. Even gear is irrelevant -- the inability to gear swaps ruins the advantage gear is supposed to give. PVP works in WoW because the engine was built with it in mind, the gameplay was built to accommodate it, and the jobs are designed to be able to grind to max level if necessary so every job has some level of survivability. There are a variety of tactics for players to use against each other. On the other hand jobs in FFXI are all very specialized and some just suck for the type of gameplay PvP requires.

All the slogfest of kings showed is that Tanaka is deplorable online game director more interested in feeding his own ego rather than creating a world where customers get an enjoyable experience.

Or maybe you need to take the game at what it is. Rewards are given for completion of challenges. If you didn't want to do the challenge, you don't get the reward. If you didn't want a Biggoron Sword in Zelda, you didn't get one. Plain and simple. The choice is up to you to do it or not.

I don't understand why people who want Kings gear should get the content shaped, changed, or replaced to their whim. You want gear you go get it, or you decide that it's not worth it.

I decided not to do Salvage, despite wanting quite a few items, because I fucking hated it. It was not worth the buttfucking. But I didn't go around expecting Salvage gear to drop off some HNM because I hated instance systems. Similarly I hate Abyssea but I bit the bullet and did it.

Ooh Gred, when im done having a blast at haloween horror nights ill respond to your response, but if they haven't taught you this little gem in law school it would behoove you to do so. Win the argument lose the jury. I stayed at or towards the negative for so long because I lotted bullshit drops and was barely on for any of the DKP generating events, because I hated sitting at kings or ixion sandworm. Those events were great for a kid in law school who can AFK to study.

Well whoever was playing the RL card on me, there you go he did it for me.

But more importantly, the fact you never were on for DKP events proves my point. You didn't contribute more because you botted, especially since you weren't there more often than not. I didn't leech off you or anyone else who botted. I put in my time and work. The people with consistent attendance and who camped put in the most work, whether or not they botted.

The other day I found out someone who went to school for something different than me got a job paying more! Real life is fucking ruined, what's the point of my Obscure Mesopotamian Art Psychology degree when someone who's jumping on the Law School Bandwagon can just go and make more than me? I worked harder than he did, it's not fair that what I got years ago is worse than what we have now.

Fail analogy is fail. You need to consider why Doctors and Lawyers make more with their MD and JD's than your PhD in Basketweaving. It's because those professional degrees are considered harder; the good schools are more exclusive, and the pool of people who can graduate is smaller. Therefore their work is valued more.

Moreover students presumably KNOW THIS going into those respective grad schools. It'd be your own fault for choosing a field of study where the payoff is known to be terrible. Just like someone can choose to camp Kings regardless of distaste you could have chosen Med School or Law School.

The game equivalent to your example is more akin to me choosing to do say, Salvage, and you choosing to do Assault. Then there is a drastic patch and Assault points all of the sudden are redeemable for drops better than all that Salvage gear I got.

[Lyall]

Moreover students presumably KNOW THIS going into those respective grad schools.

Moreover players in an MMO presumably KNOW gear is going to get outdated in future expansions.

Fail analogy is fail. You need to consider why Doctors and Lawyers make more with their MD and JD's than your PhD in Basketweaving. It's because those professional degrees are considered harder; the good schools are more exclusive, and the pool of people who can graduate is smaller. Therefore their work is valued more.

You need to consider why Abyssea and Casuals do more with their AF3 and Empyreans than your Ridill from Aery. It's because future expansions are considered more fair; the good gear is more obtainable and not dependent on bots or knowing people with bots, and the pool of players is smaller. Therefor their happiness is more valued.

I don't think you realize that you are the one with the degree in basketweaving while arguing like this.

Edit: Allow me to clarify that I do comprehend your point but I disagree with it. I'm glad you enjoyed Kings but that doesn't make them good. There is an entire kerfluffle on what price someone would pay to get gear be it botting or joining a bot shell or leaving a linkshell in the pursuit of gear, but that doesn't make it successful or fair. Then again, I'm of the opinion that everyone who pays for their account should be able to experience the whole game; to rib on your Zelda analogy it would be like if future versions of Ocarina of Time all required being connected to a Nintendo Server and there is only one chance to obtain a Biggoron Sword trade item once every day, and you're competing with everyone in your timezone for it. You saw it as a filter and test of dedication, I saw it as a pro-botting circle jerk about who had the biggest penis because they got claim and collected abjurations.

[Gredival]

Moreover players in an MMO presumably KNOW gear is going to get outdated in future expansions.

Precedent in XI was heavily towards sidegrades and permanency, so no not really. At least not at the time Abyssea came out. Haidate were still top dog for those who could use it, Adaberk was still top dog... Ridill was pretty much the only King drop that went from top tier to obsolete (as a result of the 2H patch, not because of new gear)

I don't think you realize that you are the one with the degree in basketweaving while arguing like this.

I made the choice to go after high commitment high reward loot. That sounds a lot like going for the high commitment high reward degree.

I'm of the opinion that everyone who pays for their account should be able to experience the whole game

If you can't clear Tier 1 Voidwatch you should not be allowed to experience Tier 2/3/4. If you can't clear the Shinjin you should not be allowed to experience Kirin. If you can't clear the Jailers, you should not be allowed to experience JoL. If you can't clear JoL you shouldn't be allowed to experience AV.

Well to clarify I would be fine with some sort of battle simulator arena so that people could get the opportunity to fight and practice different mobs, without rewards being involved.

But I don't believe you should be able to get rewards from all content in virtue of your subscription. Gear is a reward that marks the completion of a challenge. If you can't or don't complete that challenge, you don't deserve it.

Moreover anyone could go experience Kings -- camp Fafnir and you will always have a proportionate chance to claim comparative to others. Bring 50+ people I guarantee that you got one of the claims for the week. Camping with a lot of people is merely part of the prerequisite. And forced cooperation/competition is definitely not an offlimit restriction for an MMO. Afterall by default most content is not soloable, world spawn or not.

The gear is exclusive and zero-sum. The content is competitive and places you against others for limited resources. But it is always accessible in the respect that players can make the choice to go compete for those limited resources or not.

to rib on your Zelda analogy it would be like if future versions of Ocarina of Time all required being connected to a Nintendo Server and there is only one chance to obtain a Biggoron Sword trade item once every day, and you're competing with everyone in your timezone for it. You saw it as a filter and test of dedication, I saw it as a pro-botting circle jerk about who had the biggest penis because they got claim and collected abjurations.

If that's the conditions that get set for completing a quest or an item in the game, those are the conditions. You can think it's stupid and not do the quest. You can think it's legitimate and do it happily. You can think it's stupid but do it anyway because you want the sword.

But imo if you don't do it, then you live with not having the item. Your fate is in your hands. There is nothing wrong with extremely difficult accomplishments in games.

There are tons of asinine accomplishments in video games that are hard to do. I could never do the 100 Super Jump on Super Mario RPG, always fucked up at around 40~ Some accomplishments do involve limited rare windows. Pokemon always has 1-2 hidden Pokemon that require you to attend events to get them.

[Lyall]

If I can't kill anything in Sky you are one-hundred percent correct I shouldn't be allowed to fight Kirin. The issue here is that as soon as you start making Byakko pop once every 36-72 hours you have completely removed my ability from the equation. That's the thing we're doing circles with: Anyone who obtained Empyrean armor was ABLE to kill the monsters who held the seals for them. Anyone with an Empyrean weapon was ABLE to kill the prerequisite monsters to obtain what they worked for. No one is saying anyone should be able to just log in and obtain those things; Your problem is that the people able to get those things are, in your eyes, inferior to you and yours who spent days and weeks camping HNMs.

I'll concede that XI had a precedent for sidegrades and nothing topping Kings' gear.

I'll try to make a more accurate analogy, then. Imagine you are at work alongside a few dozen coworkers. There is an announcement that there is going to be a promotion that you qualify for, you have all of the right qualities and education and it will allow you to move up a pay grade and generally enjoy your job more.

Seventy other people are also up for promotion. Then you find out you have to submit an application for it, and there is only ONE application this quarter and half of the people there are standing around with vacuums. A small portion of them have leaf-blowers just to fuck up everyone else's chances. There is nothing even close to "fair" or "skill" involved here, it is a mad grab for something. It doesn't make the "winner" better at filling out an application, it doesn't make everyone else worse because they didn't manage to fight off a small crowd.

You yourself said that you've seen people wipe to HNMs with a full alliance, with a full dozen. If that's the case, why not let more people fail at it? You said yourself you don't have a problem with people practicing in one way or another, or even if there was a dummy Faf they could use to work out a strategy for you'd be all for it. Ultimately it comes down to limiting the chances at equipment and the championing of poor design and fake difficulty in the form of mass competition.

It shouldn't matter to anyone in the game what a bunch of chuckle-fucks you don't work with obtain. If every person had a 21-24 hour lockout on their own personal HNM timer similar to WoW's dungeon system, I am positive you'd have a problem with it if people could get the gear you cherish from it. It doesn't make sense to me; Your values in elitism and having things people don't speak very loudly about you and I think to everyone here. I'm sure you don't give a fuck, though.

If you've seen so many people unable to kill HNMs at HNM camps you really shouldn't give a fuck if they get a chance to fight it or not; They'll just wipe and that'll be that. Conversely, they WON'T wipe and people you deem inferior will obtain equipment that you feel is reserved for awesome dedicated skilled players such as yourself, and your perceived value with go down because your armor is slightly less special now that there's another guy in Jeuno idling next to you in it.