Tanaka Rage!

[Hyan]

For how well you ignore all the arguments made against your moronic points, I'd suggest you a career in the religious circles.

[Appie]

I don't think the random number game as a system is 'fail' although the playerbase perception is skewed towards that being the case. Pros and cons.

I'm trying to think of a "pro" for the RNG, of course from the perspective of the player, but can't come up with any. I see plenty from the dev's point though. Also their recently added argument "we can't make the stats as good if they are static" is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard. Simple fact: AF3 was static and blew shit out of the water and still does for the most part.

As far as loot systems go, if the drop rates are concerned how exactly do you add longevity then? It's clear that they want people to keep playing without having to put in more wasted effort, perhaps even preparing for even longer drought seasons once the cap is finalized. Their bottom line is to keep you playing, and the playerbase has shown that it can deal with a lot of shit before the numbers start taking a dip.

I'm not saying that they couldn't do better overall than they do now but I'm interested in hearing the alternatives while keeping in mind their situation and not just what we want them to do.

If they are so hell bend on having us grind for drops to infinity, add some points to the system so you can get the drop you want after x amount of runs. I've been preaching such a system since Salv, it could even be combined with droprates as they are now and you getting "lucky" with a drop before you completed x amount of runs to just buy the item with points.

Adding longevity with failga droprates isn't the way. People are a lot more willing to work towards something when there is something at the end of line for 100% and not end up empty handed because the RNG decided to fuck you over.

The obvious problem they probably have with my system is that when the x amount of runs is done, they have to add new stuff or people are more than likely to quit, while with the RNG they can keep it up for however long they want and just hope people won't quit over it in the meantime.

Also don't think the playerbase is up to take as much shit as it used to, like in the days of Salv. Times changed. The playerbase has much more control now because SE finally understands since the FF14 failure that not listening to the playerbase means less money. The playerbase is far more likely to jump ship in these times too, with the fuckload of competing MMO's. So the playerbase simply cares less and are less likely to put up with crap they don't consider "fun".

[arus2001]

We can play 20 jobs on one character. If you take forever and a day just to decently equip one (perhaps 3 by job association like WAR/PLD/DRK or BLM/RDM/SCH), you're not going to be terribly motivated to try others. New content's usually fun the first few times, maybe even challenging. Then it starts getting boring, repetitive, and a grind. You might think that good policy and justifying the SE philosophy, but I'm having some major deja vu moments here and am of the mind that money FFXI makes should go toward FFXI first, both to sustain and acquire new players. Some might call it the Tanaka Kiss of Death, but at the very least, players have been feeling the results of the diminished Dev team and they are not happy. If SE wants to up and fuck up two MMOs, well, good for them. FFXI could still be a better game than it is now and 2011 is a major step backwards.

[Lordender]

We can play 20 jobs on one character. If you take forever and a day just to decently equip one (perhaps 3 by job association like WAR/PLD/DRK or BLM/RDM/SCH), you're not going to be terribly motivated to try others. New content's usually fun the first few times, maybe even challenging. Then it starts getting boring, repetitive, and a grind. You might think that good policy and justifying the SE philosophy, but I'm having some major deja vu moments here and am of the mind that money FFXI makes should go toward FFXI first, both to sustain and acquire new players. Some might call it the Tanaka Kiss of Death, but at the very least, players have been feeling the results of the diminished Dev team and they are not happy. If SE wants to up and fuck up two MMOs, well, good for them. FFXI could still be a better game than it is now and 2011 is a major step backwards.

Maybe i'm retarded but I don't see one single pro of them having Tanaka back as producer, I see nothing but cons based on where the game has been post-abyssea. You're right, Tanaka is the kiss of death, Abyssea brought people back because the content went against "the grain" of all their design choices of the past and now with him back at the helm, expect really dumb shit for 4months of waiting for content.

[Hyan]

I'm trying to think of a "pro" for the RNG, of course from the perspective of the player, but can't come up with any.

Look at it like this: if you had to do a set number of a certain activity, you know you aren't going to get anything out of doing said activity before you've hit the magical number of tries.
Meanwhile, when you have a RNG each time could be 'the one' where you get what you're looking for. It's an incentive to keep going, meanwhile knowing you won't get jack shit for 40 more tries can be discouraging.

The problem multiplies when the devs want you to do this activity for a long time. Certain number of items are generated to the game, at the rate which is decided by the devs. If two people get "points" that count towards the item, the number of tries required per person needs to be roughly half of the drop rate of said item in a RNG system. Since when these two people have received enough points, two items are generated to the game. So yeah, like that and with Salvage drop rates you're gonna grind that shit until your eyes bleed. Roughly as long as you'd have in a RNG system, except this time you know exactly how more many times you need to go through that shit before you get anything, and not more or less. And that's gonna be a shitton of times. And in this situation, you know what? Knowing that each try, each time you go there might be the one, it's an incentive right there. Either way in the long run you aren't going to be better off no matter which system you pick especially if the whole game worked that way.

I didn't actually read your second paragraph before responding to the first one, so let me just add this: combining both systems means twice as many items generated, means both drop rate and points needed have to be balanced according to that fact. With Salvage's already low drop rates, yeah, I can't say I'd be a fan of that 'adjustment'.

People are a lot more willing to work towards something

People are also a lot more willing to give up when they realize the amount of work needed to get there, with no way of getting anything beforehand. The simple realization that you will be there for ages to come and nothing will change that is going to fuck some minds up. Having the carrot be an incentive for each run helps a ton.

As for your system having a 'problem', they can control the X however they please, just like the drop rates. If they don't want to add new stuff they'll just adjust the X/drop rates accordingly.

If the playerbase refuses to cope with the changes Tanaka, as a rational businessman although shitty at anything customer-relations related, will act accordingly. That can mean a lot of things, but usually it comes down to two: they try harder because they feel the revenue is worth it or they keep allocating resources elsewhere because their calculations have indicated it's no longer worth the hassle to fight back.

Competing MMO's comes down to WoW and WoW only, although people may be more likely to actually quit the scene after 9? years. Maybe that will change, but considering the past efforts I'll remain skeptical although promising candidates exist.

am of the mind that money FFXI makes should go toward FFXI first

Well that's very logical of you to say as a consumer but companies don't function like that. At least those who are still around don't. Realizing this would go a long way towards acceptance, because there is simply no alternative.

[arus2001]

Less resources and a guy not too good at spending them is a recipe for disaster regardless.

My deja vu moment was just seeing Hyan dickriding Tanaka again. I remember all the BS during XIV's beta or even prior, how listening and communicating with your players is just fluff and listening to people is just asking for a bad game. In the end, people want their money's worth. Sure, you can't please everyone all the time, but when you're displeasing your customers more... you either adapt or die. Kudos to loyalists who might try to brave rough waters, but SE's shown they'll do as little as possible to try and make a buck over making players happy. The sad thing is those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Hyan]

I remember all the BS during XIV's beta or even prior, how listening and communicating with your players is just fluff and listening to people is just asking for a bad game.

Just like Lordender "remembers" how Matsui became XI's producer back in 2010 it seems.

[ronin sparthos]

Tanaka is representative of the "old-school" of MMO design - the model where players are dictated by the designers and developers on how to play the game. It's no surprise that he draws the hate he does when for years he ignored the quagmires of Kings, let JP midnight lockouts reign, refused to touch major issues players had with XI and scoffed at the community solutions back when the game was receiving a healthy dose of funding from the finance department.

Years at the helm and only when XI went into decline did he see fit to shift to the modern "take some feedback from the players" model and that was almost certainly an order from higher ups rather than a decision he came to on his own.

Sure, Tanaka is not to blame for everything since the higher ups most likely cut funding to the game leading to the smaller dev team and the shittier patches of '09 but lets be serious here, he's responsible for a large part of why XI stagnated. His leadership and open scorn of the playerbases concerns is why many quit the game or gave up on hoping things would turn around.

How many times has it been stated by players that Random Number Generators suck? Yet they keep dropping them out patch after patch. From Salvage straight through to Voidwatch they've had years to correct the issue and implement point systems like the successful Einherjar ampoule system or even the old Assault setup but nope, right back to endless grinds to infinity.

It's like the concept of balance is lost on the devs.

[Hyan]

If encyclopedias had an example for the Grass is greener effect, there would probably be a link to this thread.

[arus2001]

Just like Lordender "remembers" how Matsui became XI's producer back in 2010 it seems.

I'm sorry you have the memory span of your average wrestling fan, but defending bad game design choices and philosophies was what had people gnashing their teeth at you here and on Alla.

[Hyan]

You are a great debater.

Nothing to say? Shut the fuck up. My argument is right there if you want to take a shot.

[ronin sparthos]

If encyclopedias had an example for the Grass is greener effect, there would probably be a link to this thread.

Or maybe it's just an observation that one man helped drive XI into the ground due to his stubborn nature to resist adaptation?

Id hardly call Tanaka the only reason XI suffered for a number of years but he's a major player.

[Hyan]

My post wasn't related to that point of yours, and I agree that he was a major player in what the players perceive as bad things.

At the end of the day, money has had the greatest effect on the game's development and lack of it. Say, if we choose between fixing old content and releasing new content to replace the old content...wait, we don't have to do that! In our world we can have everything. As such we can also criticise the man that has to do just that.

[Lordender]

Tanaka is representative of the "old-school" of MMO design - the model where players are dictated by the designers and developers on how to play the game. It's no surprise that he draws the hate he does when for years he ignored the quagmires of Kings, let JP midnight lockouts reign, refused to touch major issues players had with XI and scoffed at the community solutions back when the game was receiving a healthy dose of funding from the finance department.

Years at the helm and only when XI went into decline did he see fit to shift to the modern "take some feedback from the players" model and that was almost certainly an order from higher ups rather than a decision he came to on his own.

Sure, Tanaka is not to blame for everything since the higher ups most likely cut funding to the game leading to the smaller dev team and the shittier patches of '09 but lets be serious here, he's responsible for a large part of why XI stagnated. His leadership and open scorn of the playerbases concerns is why many quit the game or gave up on hoping things would turn around.

How many times has it been stated by players that Random Number Generators suck? Yet they keep dropping them out patch after patch. From Salvage straight through to Voidwatch they've had years to correct the issue and implement point systems like the successful Einherjar ampoule system or even the old Assault setup but nope, right back to endless grinds to infinity.

It's like the concept of balance is lost on the devs.

Yep. players loved Assault, Einherjar once they fixed the feather system, in the end point systems have been largely popular, you could even say trial of the magians as well because players put work into the event knowing their progressing to a tangible goal.

Salvage seemed 50/50, I loved the event itself but eventually it got so annoying to deal with low drop rates, the progression was there in terms of worthwhile loot but once again we go back to the drop rates being shitty.

I honestly feel sorry for SE if this is the model they're gonna go back to especially after Abyssea upped the ante and expectation.

[arus2001]

You are a great debater.

Nothing to say? Shut the fuck up. My argument is right there if you want to take a shot.

Which argument? That you claim to know how the business world works and that continually reinvesting in what's making you money to improve it and thus make more money is a bad idea? Because we're seeing the skeleton crew alternative in action and that's not really working, either.

[Hyan]

Now Assault and the like are funny, because those systems were meant as intermediate rewards at best that are easy to obtain. That's, like, perfect for a point system. Although you could have just had RNG with a good drop rate instead. But it worked so.

The fact that the community can't see the difference is astounding. It'd be a whole different game if those items were actually meant as superior and 'best', and as such, were as time consuming to get as Salvage stuff for example. Trials is a product of Abyssea-era and drop rates are pretty good across the board too.

continually reinvesting in what's making you money to improve it and thus make more money

They are doing just that and with just enough reinvestment that they get as much money as possible out of it. That, as surprising as it may seem to you, doesn't mean putting all the money you generate into the same source. You really suck at debating though, I'm sorry I lied.

[ronin sparthos]

My post wasn't related to that point of yours, and I agree that he was a major player in what the players perceive as bad things.

At the end of the day, money has had the greatest effect on the game's development and lack of it. Say, if we choose between fixing old content and releasing new content to replace the old content...wait, we don't have to do that! In our world we can have everything. As such we can also criticise the man that has to do just that.

The fact is that even when the game was getting a healthy supply of money, the game suffered due to numerous poor decisions made by a Japanese dev team led by Tanaka that continuously thought they knew better than the people playing this game daily and experiencing the flaws firsthand.

Sure, if we jump forward to post TOAU we can arrive at the conclusion that many of Tanakas decisions were based on constraints created by a sharp funding cut to FFXI but that completely ignores the eras before this game was second to FFXIV.

Further, even with money as a lesser constraint he partly shoulders responsibility for the epic disaster that was the XIV launch.

Bottom line is yes, money is going to affect decisions but a persons mindset also plays a big factor in what decisions get made.

[Hyan]

I haven't even disagreed that the game was in a deep shit back in the early days, which is partly due to stubborness/lack of pressure to change (playerbase was growing steadily at the time anyway) and partly lack of experience in the field.

The current crying though is what's dumb as fuck, and that's more relevant than 2004 is. People are literally making shit up to justify their mindset.

[Lordender]

I put a lot of blame on Tanaka for XIV, Yoshida is night and day because he gets it, he's played the competition and understands what works and what isn't going to work. Tanaka repeated every single mistake from XI plus MORE with XIV launch.

People can blame funding for XIV but the things that actually got the green-lit and made it into XIV is on Terrible Tanaka, from fatigue, horrible grind, terrible craft system, random skillpoints by killing mobs, terrible class system, all of that falls on Tanaka, it always goes back to design choices and he's terrible with his decade + old design methods.

[arus2001]

They are doing just that and with just enough reinvestment that they get as much money as possible out of it. That, as surprising as it may seem to you, doesn't mean putting all the money you generate into the same source. You really suck at debating though, I'm sorry I lied.

If you want to want to work in short term bursting bubbles, good for you. I'll gladly be the sucky debater if it means I'm not advocating putting a game with so much wasted potential on a needless death sentence. Prioritizing money XI makes to go toward XI doesn't mean all of it like you're trying to think I'm advocating. Rather, we could have had a game that started with roughly a million users better sustain those numbers, not get incomplete expansions shoveled at us that take a year or more to finish, maybe actually gotten expansions roughly every 1.5 years that people would've paid $30 or more for, seen better attempts at job balancing and diversity, more zones, quests, events, monsters, equipment, possibly working on solutions to inventory woes sooner, various convenience perks, better UI, and so on.

Instead, you'd rather sit there and defend SE being dunces because you think maybe they made the better move. That kind of hubris is exactly what's been fucking them over these past few years. You give customers what they want, not try to tell them what you think they want because you're not willing to provide it. MMOs aren't the kind of market you can afford to dick around in anymore. People can and will go elsewhere. Some might even give up the genre entirely. It's a shame they see intent on running XI to the ground, but the alternative, whether you like it or not, is for us to bitch at them and hope they reconsider.