Tanaka Rage!

[NynJa]

then dont upgrade to 95...if the upgrade is so marginal, why bother? a 90 emp still pulls ahead of most, if not all, weapons at 95.

if no one upgrades, SE will take notice...like they did with mythics. Only problem, is they'll lower the requirement to 1200 and add pouches to all T4 VNM.

[DNAval]

What no one wants to realize is that Relics and Empys are on 2 different playing fields. And everyone is pissed that Empys outdamaged relics.

Relics took months and months in the old days to get them to the final stage, not to mention an entire LS + shouts.

Empy's took a month tops with 3-4 people which in some cases it was the same person running around RMT style with a bunch of mules.

Relics targeted a different type of player, relics were the pinnacle of accomplishments back in the 75 cap, and there was a handful 1-5 peps who could make a relic in a month or 2, most of the currency being bought.

Empys targeted every freaking noob who only dreamed of owning a relic, (my self included) they made empys so easy that the hardcore peps got 7-9 empys while your average Joe got 1 maybe 2.

Now for the average Joe ( dude with his tarutaru WHM ) its still nearly impossible to try to make a relic within the time frame that it takes to make an empy. How is this balancing the 2 out working out? (I'm not even gonna bother throwing Mythics in there)

What sucks is the dude who managed to get relics back in the day is already done with the hard part, while the average Joe and his stupid whm mule are stuck with a 90 weapon that they will never be able to get to 95 because its even harder than the relics.

If only SE could realized that Relics and Empys targeted different players and balance them out in terms of damage instead of difficulty to obtain, both players will become happy.

Im not sure how long it takes to gather currency in dyna now days, but im sure i could make a lot of kannagi's in the time it takes to make 1 Kikoku.

[dasva]

I bet you couldn't make a single kanagi 90 in the same amount of manhours it takes to make a 95 kikoku farming all the pops and such. I know a couple of guys they duo'd relic gun and scythe in a month. It's like what 2 hours in dynamis now? So that's about 60 man hours per relic. Yeah that's a bit faster than most people but you think you can get your kanagi to even 85 with 60 man hours buying nothing? And that's just the stages before this crazy one.

And even if you could do you think you could farm 1500 plates in that time? I don't think there is even 1500 plates total on a server yet with everyone spamming VW.

I'm currently buying currency on average of 10k each and gotten about 1/3 of the way to my aegis in 2 days of buying lol. If I do that all the way it would cost 150mil and then I can quickly spend a few hours (much fewer than the easiest stages of any empyrean) getting it to 95. Well once I ya know lvl pld... anyways if I bought every single metal plate in all the bazaars at whatever cost they are I doubt I could even get 20% into the requirement for the lvl 95 requirement... not to mention the prices I see are anywhere from 200k to 500k which means buying them all would cost 300-750mil...

Not to mention alot of relics are becoming better than empyreans...

[NynJa]

I know a couple of guys they duo'd relic gun and scythe in a month..

Yeah, I heard that story too...theres one problem:
Presuming they got a 30 piece loaner
Gun: 100 Byne Bill x 5, L. Jadeshell x 15, M. Silverpiece x 62, 100 Byne Bill x 70
Scythe: L. Jadeshell x 5 M. Silverpiece x 16 100 Byne Bill x 62 L. Jadeshell x 70

total currency: 137 100 byne, 90 jadeshell, 78 Silverpiece, total of 305 hundreds.

Presuming they farmed all their currency, which is your implication...if this was over the course of a 4 week period, as you're claiming, that means they farmed 76 hundreds a week, or farmed 1100 currency EVERY run they did. If thats the case...you should go give these numbers to the neo-dynamis thread, because everyone in that thread fucking SUCKS at what theyre doing.

Either the time frame is flawed (one relic per month, but thats still an average of 550 currency per run), or they bought currency as well to support their relics.

Im not sure how long it takesto gather currency in dyna now days, but im sure i could make a lot of kannagi's in the time it takes to make 1 Kikoku.

Going by the numbers in the neo-dynamis thread, the average per run is about 200. Presuming you can still get a loaner, thats still 151 hundreds to farm up, which would take about 75 days, if you go every day. That puts you to a 75, to put it to the same stage where an emp is useful, you then have to do a couple magian trials:
Using dagger for copy pasta:
Trial 991: Beasts Mercy Stroke x200 (takes about 2 hours offhanding MK and gear removing for WS)
Mercy Stroke killing blow*
Trial 992: Vermin x200 (3 1/2 hours)
Trial 1818: Plantoids x300 (5 1/4 hours)
Trial 1819: BirdsT x300 (5 1/4 hours)
Trial 2249: DragonsT x400 (7 hours)

*Presuming you can find an uncontested camp of 5 mobs (which seems to be the average camp size), the only killspeed factor on top of the average 1 kill per minute will be the 95% accuracy cap, giving you 57 kills per hour. Not going to factor WS's that fail to kill the mob since for most weapons its not a problem.


Now, before people drone on about the empy trials about NM's and how it takes forever, I've been breaking my back working close to 60 hours a week cause someones out of town, and without having anyone mooch kills for me or being afk for any kills (because JP are fucking losers like that) it took me about 8 days to do trials for all 3 of my accts seperately (GA/Club/Gun). Someone on a regular schedule, or being able to have friends get kills for them would significantly reduce time.

[ronin sparthos]

Oh yeah, beause "Deilver 2000 WS killshots for DMG+3 Attack+5" really coincided with "deliver 50 Ulhuadshi Fangs"

People complained and the trials are reasonable now, what's your point?

All I see in this new 1500pt trial is a silly attempt to placate relic holders who feel they were "cheated" by Emps so SE turns around and creates this poorly thought out trial to "balance" things.

What a joke.

By all means buff relics (make them #1) and scale back the improvements of Empyreans (make them a solid 3rd tier weapon) but don't attempt to waste peoples time just to satisfy a small group of people mad about a shift in dynamic.

But I forgot, nearly a billion gil for an Emp upgrade is fair cause some people paid 100-250M for a relic.

[Colenzo]

You're telling me relics are easier than emps, in both time and difficulty (difficulty being a basis of material aquisition)

of course, they did nerf the WS trials...after every fucking relic holder allready did them.

No, I am saying relics are harder to obtain and the trials are easier. Where as the empyreans are easy to obtain and should be progressively harder to upgrade.

[Colenzo]

People complained and the trials are reasonable now, what's your point?

All I see in this new 1500pt trial is a silly attempt to placate relic holders who feel they were "cheated" by Emps so SE turns around and creates this poorly thought out trial to "balance" things.

What a joke.

By all means buff relics (make them #1) and scale back the improvements of Empyreans (make them a solid 3rd tier weapon) but don't attempt to waste peoples time just to satisfy a small group of people mad about a shift in dynamic.

But I forgot, nearly a billion gil for an Emp upgrade is fair cause some people paid 100-250M for a relic.

The updates are still coming chief, keep your panties on. At 99 relics will be back on top again. You saw where relics are going when the 95 cap hit.

[ronin sparthos]

The updates are still coming chief, keep your panties on. At 99 relics will be back on top again. You saw where relics are going when the 95 cap hit.

Im aware by 99 relic will be #1 again which makes the 1500 pt Emp trial even more silly given ultimately the weapon will be 3rd tier or worse.

This goes back right back to my point to the heavy metal trial is nothing more than a way of making relic owners feel less "screwed" by the Abyssean upgrades giving individuals a shortcut to a powerful weapon. Nevermind everyone got screwed to some degree by gear obsolescence.

[Colenzo]

So you mean to tell me they meant to devalue relics from the very beginning in terms of usefulness but they changed their mind halfway? Cool story bro.

[ronin sparthos]

So you mean to tell me they meant to devalue relics from the very beginning in terms of usefulness but they changed their mind halfway? Cool story bro.

What was there to devalue to begin with? Half the relics were shit at 75.

Empyreans were created to be casual relics and the unfortunate side-effect for a good while was that Relics/Mythics were inferior but ultimately SE meant to rectify that by improving Relics on the trip to 99. They've already laid the groundwork for that and by 99 we'll have relics and mythics sitting at 1st and 2nd respectively in the general sense.

The problem is that many relic holders want Empyreans to be just as grindy and chore-ridden as the original weapons which is not what they were billed as. Give Empyreans reasonable trials that end in a 3rd tier or worse weapon while you improve Relics/Mythics and everyone wins.

Then again who am I kidding? It'd be SE that initiates such a deceptive bait 'n switch luring in people with simple, casual trials designed for a small 2-6man PT then spring a trap and require 1500 uncommon items from alliance content to upgrade a sole weapon.

[dasva]

I have no idea how Atoreis did it... and I don't know if they even bothered with a loaner. They went right onto farming their next set of relics. Hell all he talks about is making one after another ig...

Regardless even with your more conservative 75 days worth that's 150 man hours then what 25ish for trails. I still bet that's less man hours than getting most empyreans to 90. Maybe even some to 85.

[Colenzo]

What was there to devalue to begin with? Half the relics were shit at 75.

Empyreans were created to be casual relics and the unfortunate side-effect for a good while was that Relics/Mythics were inferior but ultimately SE meant to rectify that by improving Relics on the trip to 99. They've already laid the groundwork for that and by 99 we'll have relics and mythics sitting at 1st and 2nd respectively in the general sense.

The problem is that many relic holders want Empyreans to be just as grindy and chore-ridden as the original weapons which is not what they were billed as. Give Empyreans reasonable trials that end in a 3rd tier or worse weapon while you improve Relics/Mythics and everyone wins.

Then again who am I kidding? It'd be SE that initiates such a deceptive bait 'n switch luring in people with simple, casual trials designed for a small 2-6man PT then spring a trap and require 1500 uncommon items from alliance content to upgrade a sole weapon.

Stopped reading right here because this is false. The relics at 75 were the best at what they were. Minus the mythic polearm.

[DNAval]

I have no idea how Atoreis did it... and I don't know if they even bothered with a loaner. They went right onto farming their next set of relics. Hell all he talks about is making one after another ig...

Regardless even with your more conservative 75 days worth that's 150 man hours then what 25ish for trails. I still bet that's less man hours than getting most empyreans to 90. Maybe even some to 85.

yeah...................... I'm just gonna have to go ahead and say no....

if you want to compare apples to apples.
Buying + farming then empys still get done a lot faster.

once again comparing someone who has enough gil to buy himself 1/3 of the way on a relic to dudes walking around less than 10mills....
a Ukon can be done in 3 weeks by 4 toons ( i'm using my self as an example ) that's main + mule and another main + mule, that's also buying half the pop items for all NM's which comes down to about 4.5M.

if you can show me how to make a relic in 3 weeks with 4 toons and spending 4.5M I'd love to hear it cause to my eyes its impossible.

[DNAval]

I have no idea how Atoreis did it... and I don't know if they even bothered with a loaner. They went right onto farming their next set of relics. Hell all he talks about is making one after another ig...

Regardless even with your more conservative 75 days worth that's 150 man hours then what 25ish for trails. I still bet that's less man hours than getting most empyreans to 90. Maybe even some to 85.

Oh I forgot to add that to my other post, I'm on my phone so forgive me for not editing...

the Bolded and Italics, Arthars would disagree with that. It doesn't take much searching to find out your wrong, go to the Empy weapon thread and look up Arthars post of his empys. he was finishing them in 1-2 weeks.

[dasva]

yeah...................... I'm just gonna have to go ahead and say no....

if you want to compare apples to apples.
Buying + farming then empys still get done a lot faster.

once again comparing someone who has enough gil to buy himself 1/3 of the way on a relic to dudes walking around less than 10mills....
a Ukon can be done in 3 weeks by 4 toons ( i'm using my self as an example ) that's main + mule and another main + mule, that's also buying half the pop items for all NM's which comes down to about 4.5M.

if you can show me how to make a relic in 3 weeks with 4 toons and spending 4.5M I'd love to hear it cause to my eyes its impossible.

If you really want to compare buying with buying I can do a relic in... oh yeah that right just buy all the currency.


And really 100mil isn't that much nowadays...the several hundred for last empyrean stage is. I mean you said you got 4 guys to play with. Even without a good regular farm you could just make a cruor pt get tons of xp and make a good 500k+ per character and hour so 2 mil for you. So yeah in 3 weeks you probably could farm enough gil for a relic. Especially get to the into the 400 or so coins a day you can farm in that time too. I mean that would be half the coins right there

What stage of Ukon? Don't tell me you actually got it to 90 doing that and only spent 4.5 mil

And really I was trying to compare man hours. It's kinda unfair to say so man hours but then not factor you had alot more characters or whatever

[dasva]

Oh I forgot to add that to my other post, I'm on my phone so forgive me for not editing...

the Bolded and Italics, Arthars would disagree with that. It doesn't take much searching to find out your wrong, go to the Empy weapon thread and look up Arthars post of his empys. he was finishing them in 1-2 weeks.

Again a number of days/weeks etc is meaningless in terms of how much time it took to make it. Hell you didn't even actually respond to what you bolded an italiced. I said manhours you say weeks. Well guess what 175 manhours is only 7.3 days solo!!!

How many hours did it take how many characters and how much did you spend to do it that fast. Did Arthar only use 2 characters only 2 hours a day not spending any gil to do it that fast? You see what I'm getting at? Comparing several hours a day with many characters to 2 characters only playing 2 hours a day and going well it took less weeks is kinda fail comparison. By that logic Guild point items are take rediculous amount of time to get. Why in the time it takes to get 1 furniture you could make several empyreans!!!

[NynJa]

The problem is that many relic holders want Empyreans to be just as grindy and chore-ridden as the original weapons which is not what they were billed as.

No, the problem was empryian WS were generally stronger than relics (Ukko > Metatron, VSmite > FHeaven, Hi > Metsu, Fudo > Kaiten, Rudra is kinda on par with MS...Apoc is probably stronger than Quietus if you consider bonus goodies being HP drain and haste effect, Torcleaver > Scourge?), the ODD on emps is pretty much 50% full time since theres no reason to NOT use those WS's (barring dagger) whereas Relics was a mere 5%, empyrians were generally always a better weapon, much better weapon. The problem is obtaining an empyrian was akin to walking down the street to the corner store, and obtaining a relic was akin to slitting your mothers throat and carrying her corpse up mount fuji. You're doing much more work for less.

Thats why relic holders were pissed.

No, I am saying relics are harder to obtain and the trials are easier. Where as the empyreans are easy to obtain and should be progressively harder to upgrade.

As I said, and this cant be ignored, the trials for relics were reduced long after majority of the relics in the field had already gone through them.

[NynJa]

I have no idea how Atoreis did it... and I don't know if they even bothered with a loaner. They went right onto farming their next set of relics. Hell all he talks about is making one after another ig...

Atroeis made a new emp every 2 weeks, not relics...the people who made the supposed scythe and gun arent part of atroeis's group.

[dasva]

Atroeis made a new emp every 2 weeks, not relics...the people who made the supposed scythe and gun arent part of atroeis's group.

No I know he did emps too. I mean I talk to him ig. He and Ragni duo'd. He made scythe ragni made gun... now ragni want's scythe and fuck if I know what Ato is making this time. Crazy galka never could just chose 1 thing and stick to it lol. Also I can't tag along cause they duo onry. Not that it matters much I'm going to flat out buy my aegis. I just wish people would stop marking up the price of certain currency I need more of... 14k bronzes no thanks. Hell even see 20k sometimes. I do believe Ato brings an alt to help though so guess you could call it trio.

[NynJa]

guess it was Atroeis...but the numbers still dont add up. Even at one relic per month, thats an average of 500 currency per run. Is your average joe pulling that off? No...

even his own posts with brochain "cheater" pulls suggest 500 average is almost impossible
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104...=1#post4591316

so currency was clearly purchased to supplement the upgrades