Tanaka Rage!

[noodles355]

No....

You still won't answer my question. I am assuming it is because you are wrong about the producer change and can't answer it, but just dont want to admit you're wrong. If I am mistake then I'll ask again incase you have a reading disability and missed it the first time: Care to enlighten me on when he stepped down as producer, when he was re-instated and who was producer whilst he was away? I'd also be interested to know why you think he is/was a director? Or was that a typo and you always meant producer? But then as I say: When was this producer change? Also where is the proof that he had no input on abyssea?

ITT: Guilty until proven innocent.

and did you sleep thru all the HNM scene? Did you avoid it all together?, like did you and your buddies only do nyzul for bodies and heads thru all that time?

Yup, I never did a single HNM. I fulltimed Denali Bonnet too back at 75. Now I'm 95 I just use Aurore instead. Looks like you're one of those "If you don't agree with me you've obviously never done endgame" people. You realise I am not arguing about the difference in effort/reward between pre-abyssea and abyssea it's self, I'm arguing that you need to stop pinning all that shit on one goddamn guy without any proof whatsoever that it was actually his doing.

Throughout this whole thing, I have never stated whether I thought new/old content had a good or bad effort/reward ratio. I never said whether I agreed or not with the "balancing" of the empyrean/relic through the 95 trial. I stated the justification for it, I never stated whether or not I agreed with it. What I disagree with is you pinning the blame for all this shit on one guy with no actual proof it was him.

I'm waiting for your proof and valid reasoning for blaming this shit on Tanaka, although I'm not holding my breath because I'm fairly sure you don't have any. And the "Abyssea is different to old endgame" isn't a valid reason. Do you really think FFXI could have kept the content similar whilst progressing players 24 levels from 75 to 99? Fuck no. The most likely thing is that they (including Tanaka) released abyssea in a way to make that jump much easier on the playerbase. Now that the playerbase is caught up, it's back to the original FFXI, and if you don't like that then did you not like FFXI before abyssea? Mayhaps you should go play a different MMO.

[Karbuncle]

Is not believing in coincidences proof D

If not i have nothing

[dasva]

Yeah idk. I thought he said 1 at first and when I posted that he sent me a tell saying no they both did. Tbh idk. If you know him you know he does exaggerate a bit.

My main point is actually farm time now for relic is rather low. 2 people can farm almost as fast as the double allainces back in the day. Imagine having that much now lol. As stated a good farmer can get about 200 run so about 150 man hours to farm 75 and another 25ish for the rest.

And most people that go on about how they did there empyrean in X number of days/weeks to prove there point in how fast it can be done don't really add up how many hours a day that was and how many characters were involved to do that.

I want to know just how many manhours these people who sped thru empyreans took. Most I hear of used several accounts several hours a day...

I mean when I finally got more KI holders for kanagi and CW burning it normally took me about 4-8 hours to get the 2 KIs I could from boxes for sobek for 6 people and another 1-3 hours to get the final KI and kill the sobeks. So on average 8 hours with 6 peeps for 6 sobek. Got pretty lucky on the drops so I'd say I average around 1.8 skins per kill. So 48 man hours to get 10.8 skins... or a bit over 200 for all 50. Doesn't even get into how much slower it went when I had alot less KI holders (read only my 2nd account) or how sucktastic dual boxing all of briaerus was.

[dasva]

Is not believing in coincidences proof D

If not i have nothing

Lol I like this. But the kind of proof he's asking for is nigh on impossible to obtain. Since he hasn't outright said and we don't have an inside guy to violate his NDA to spill all this we kinda have to go with what we have and logical deductions from it

[Churchill]

Cara path to 85 ~14-18h total
Bria path to 85 ~24h total
Tahrongi did Glav/Chloris at the same time ~18-20h total

[Deader2818]

Just IMO but you cant really use assumptions to prove a point if it can not be proven.

[NynJa]

You also cant disprove a point under the same basis though.

[Apelila]

ITT: Guilty until proven innocent.

I'm waiting for your proof and valid reasoning for blaming this shit on Tanaka, although I'm not holding my breath because I'm fairly sure you don't have any.

Sniping this a bit, but really no one has anything outside anecdotal proof. By definition, and I'm copy pasta from wikipedia:

In short, the internal producer is ultimately responsible for timely delivery and final quality of the game.

We dont know the organizational setup for the XI development team. But Tanaka is the person who has been in charge the entire time, calling the shots. That means he approved abyssea, and he approved the changes that has the beach spilling out of the collective vagoo. We also can't prove any of the speculation that he had nothing to do with abyssea. The general concensus so far has been either A: oh, back to normal or B: Do they really fucking think we'll go back to that?

[Deader2818]

You also cant disprove a point under the same basis though.

exactly why the entire point isnt relevant.

[dasva]

Cara path to 85 ~14-18h total
Bria path to 85 ~24h total
Tahrongi did Glav/Chloris at the same time ~18-20h total

With how many people? Again pure time amounts can't really be compared need to know how many people were involved and probably how much money was used if any.

[Churchill]

2 people, 2 mules each, no buying of pops

I think you're asking to compare vs farming relic, and if you're 2 boxing then Relic in terms of hours spent farming is faster to 95 than Empyrean to 90. I figured that if I 2boxed all of my weapons it would take me ~160-180h total to get one to 90 and @200 currency a run that's 170 some odd hours to get your relic currency farmed.

[dasva]

Yes that was what I was getting at. Having many KI holders makes farming much faster. From more characters to draw from to more KI holders so faster pop farming and less time zoning and such and walking but remember they are extra and there time counts too. Pretty much anyone can bring a couple of people to duo dynamis effectively

While dynamis isn't exactly as easy to dual/tri box and extra players wont necessarily add as much still something... then again not everyone has 3 accounts lol.

But yeah imagine if you went in and dual/tri boxed then your friend went in and did the same giving you his coins. And then since your so used to eventing for longer periods you go out and murder some random stuff for gils and buy a whole bunch more coins. That being said you might be able to farm gil for coins faster than you can farm coins so there is that. Gil is so easy to make these days.

Then theres the pre abyssea stages... but it's too hard to quantify those really. You might show up and afk it all or you might be the only one camping an nm for 20 hours before it pops once. Like I think I spent a total of 80 hours actively killing stuff for gun the first time (WoE). The 2nd time maybe 15-20. And on kat I think I spent maybe 10ish at most largely because the huge amount of people at each camp and afking thru it all.

[DNAval]

Yeah idk. I thought he said 1 at first and when I posted that he sent me a tell saying no they both did. Tbh idk. If you know him you know he does exaggerate a bit.

My main point is actually farm time now for relic is rather low. 2 people can farm almost as fast as the double allainces back in the day. Imagine having that much now lol. As stated a good farmer can get about 200 run so about 150 man hours to farm 75 and another 25ish for the rest.

And most people that go on about how they did there empyrean in X number of days/weeks to prove there point in how fast it can be done don't really add up how many hours a day that was and how many characters were involved to do that.

I want to know just how many manhours these people who sped thru empyreans took. Most I hear of used several accounts several hours a day...

I mean when I finally got more KI holders for kanagi and CW burning it normally took me about 4-8 hours to get the 2 KIs I could from boxes for sobek for 6 people and another 1-3 hours to get the final KI and kill the sobeks. So on average 8 hours with 6 peeps for 6 sobek. Got pretty lucky on the drops so I'd say I average around 1.8 skins per kill. So 48 man hours to get 10.8 skins... or a bit over 200 for all 50. Doesn't even get into how much slower it went when I had alot less KI holders (read only my 2nd account) or how sucktastic dual boxing all of briaerus was.

was that back when 85 was cap? cause i can get 4 sobeks in 1 hour 30 mins ish....

[Darkmagi]

Any empyrean can be 90 within 3 days with 4 characters or less. Ochain/harp is quite the chore, but even that is possible if you get extremely grindy. Mind you, it's quite possible to make the gil for a relic in similar times as making an empyrean, but that's another story.

[NynJa]

I mean when I finally got more KI holders for kanagi and CW burning it normally took me about 4-8 hours to get the 2 KIs I could from boxes for sobek for 6 people and another 1-3 hours to get the final KI and kill the sobeks. So on average 8 hours with 6 peeps for 6 sobek.

8 hours to get 6 sobek pops? one sobek pop per 80 minutes? and thats WHILE cleaving for pops?
And more importantly, it took you "1-3 hours" to kill minax bugard 6 times? lets go by your minimum, with 1 minute respawn timer, its taking you NINE minutes to kill minax bugard.

AEOTHAOIE HTAO)T A)TY A)T A)T A)T O)AETOAETHOAEIG )# V(AR#Y
That's me actually flipping out, with my jaw hitting the floor, stunned...

WOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW can you exaggerate numbers any worse to make your claim of "emps arent as easy as you say" sound credible?

[Siatdiat]

I'm curious what makes Briareus hard? I didn't know kiting in a semi circle was difficult.

[dasva]

8 hours to get 6 sobek pops? one sobek pop per 80 minutes? and thats WHILE cleaving for pops?
And more importantly, it took you "1-3 hours" to kill minax bugard 6 times? lets go by your minimum, with 1 minute respawn timer, its taking you NINE minutes to kill minax bugard.

AEOTHAOIE HTAO)T A)TY A)T A)T A)T O)AETOAETHOAEIG )# V(AR#Y
That's me actually flipping out, with my jaw hitting the floor, stunned...

WOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW can you exaggerate numbers any worse to make your claim of "emps arent as easy as you say" sound credible?

Solo cleaving. And yes from start farming lights to all sobeks dead about 8 hours. Mind you I'm the only one building lights, curing, cleaving, opening most the boxes, tanking, procing, doing the vast majority of the dmg when fighting nms and that was before I finished Kanagi. These people were just new returning after not playing for 3 years. But they were bodies that could hold KIs so still sped things up

And for some reason I tended to keep getting the same KIs over and over again. Once got a couple dozen Guk KI's before I got a single lizard one... Hell I made many more sets for ciren and what I could of the amphithere. I guess I just have horribad luck for getting what I was going for anyways. But I did cleave all of my pops and even when I was just dual boxing with no other KI holders I don't think I got set in less than 2 hours total. So no it's not just a shitting time or 2. And yes this was at 90.

And no. Look at it again. I said 1-3 hours to get final KI and kill sobeks. Instead of spending so much time flipping out you should've just read the entire sentence. The variable time being people being ass hats at minaxand not having all procs. If I can get in there it takes only a few min per kill. But yeah I've litterally had no one there on first kill and litterally 20 people show up for the 2nd one and I couldn't pop a single one with me and my friends spamming trade maccros till a good 6 pops later.

Those are actual numbers. In fact that is the best because like I said it was much worse when I didn't have KI holders. It's why I didn't finish armageddon until I started doing this to farm for kanagi. If you want something really crazy but still perfectly true there is the time I was dual boxing briaerus and it took me 3 hours just to get popset for both. And that's with buying pops at 30k each.

And I never said anything there difficulty. This is abyssea if you want difficult go to VW or something. My entire claim as you put it is they take more time than people think. Mostly because everyone has this mentality that if you finish something in 2 days it's sooooo much faster than if you finish it in a week even if it was 48 hours straight with 16 people vs an hour a day solo. There's the exaggeration you were asking for . Happy?

So in a way you could further say that I claim that actual man hours spent doing something is a more accurate way of describing how long something takes than the elaped time from start to finish. I mean if you think about it a really good ls could average a few hundred currency per run if that's what they were going for way back in the day. So technically if you go from start to finish they could do a relic almost as fast as now... only difference is it took 30+ people specifically farming for currency giving it all to 1 person usually doing same zone(s) over and over so there is almost no benefit for the people coming. Which of course leads to the envitable disbanding and then trying to find new suckers... I mean recruits. But yeah by the way I look at it that made it take rediculously longer. I mean relics took thousands and thousands of man hours before even after you managed to sucker people into farming them for you.


Which gets me to my end point. People act like it's some huge difference between making relics and empyreans. Like empyreans are the everymans weapon buildable by even n00bs. Therefore we need to stick it to the empyreans when the time spent to get it now isn't as huge if at all as it once was and any n00b can at least farm all the currency the need in a reasonable time . So in reality there is no need to balance the difficulty for this stage between those 2 .... Hell I can make the money from just fishing half a day with my 3 accounts to make a relic in 1.5-2 months. Now mythic that's another story... If Tanaka wasn't calling the shots I'd hope for them lowering that requirement. But as is I only hope to god they don't balance relic/empyrean to compensate for the difficulty of getting a mythic to 75.

[NynJa]

And no. Look at it again. I said 1-3 hours to get final KI and kill sobeks. Instead of spending so much time flipping out you should've just read the entire sentence.

Ok, heres the sentence, once again:

I mean when I finally got more KI holders for kanagi and CW burning it normally took me about 4-8 hours to get the 2 KIs I could from boxes for sobek for 6 people (takes 4-8 hours to get 6 Peiste skins and 6 Lizard Nails) and another 1-3 hours to get the final KI and kill the sobeks (ok so I missed kill the sobeks). So on average 8 hours with 6 peeps for 6 sobek.

How long is Sobek taking...exactly? Took me, being cautious with a backup of thf85/whm something and whmnoteven80/blm, [02:07:45]Lost key item: Bloodstained bugard fang.
[02:07:45]Lost key item: Gnarled lizard nail.
[02:07:45]Lost key item: Molted peiste skin.
to
[02:13:27]Nynja defeats Sobek.

6 minutes...not trying for grellow, but also trying to be careful with tyrant tusk.

Once got a couple dozen Guk KI's before I got a single lizard one

which begs the question, why not just pop sirrush? You cant say "it takes X time" if you're being horribly inefficient >.>

[dasva]

You're right. I was actually probably took a bit more than the minimum I said to kill the minax and sobek. Those being at the end never really timed it unless it went long and it took a bit more of my focus.

But yes my sobeks were probably a little longer than you. I was on thf/nin my alt was um... started the sobeks at like 80ish whm/rdm I made mostly to help with empyreans. My friends... well let's just say for the most part they were just bodies. Bodies with blu and most of the blm procs and even the occasional helpful stun and targets to go after if I get hated reseted that isn't my whm but yeah not really much in the way of dmg. I think that's what your having a hard time with. I had my main which did almost everything and a mule that was only a couple of weeks old and some people who hand't played the game in 3 years a couple of which never played that much to begin with. So I was basically dual boxing a horribly geared/atma'd/lvl'd whm and whatever I was playing on main... blu for cleaving nin for KIing thf for drops... and then had some guys that could hold KI's and not much more as I sorta gave them a jump start into how the game now is. Once I taught them how to open boxes and such it sped cleaving up alot lol.

And of course we attempted red until they got the atma and we tried to grellow for them. The ironic part being is they all have tons of the items to upgrade for +2 before any of them even had a single seal for +1 lol. But still doubt it took much more than 10min each unless I died which was only twice. But yeah overall it might have been faster if I could've just 6 boxed it myself... but I don't have 6 accounts so meh. I like many others make due with what they got. Some people have multilple friends with multiple accounts that are all decently usable. I had that. Before that I just had me and my mule. Still figured a few weeks and I'd have kanagi and then farming for others would be easier. And of course now the others have learned alot more about abyssea and well lvld up and I've ran them thru most the zone bosses so yeah they can help out more when they actually on

[NynJa]

Stuns go a long way...take out Tyrant Tusk, and you dont have to be patient or cautious
[23:34:13]Lost key item: Molted peiste skin
.
...
[23:37:31]Sumiko defeats Sobek.

granted I had an extra blu and blm...that doesnt account for shaving half the fight off tho