Tanaka Rage!

[calinz]

I still would've favored SE easing the initial acquisition requirements of Relics and Mythics. New Dynamis might be nice if you can average 250 a day, but that's still a healthy chunk of time solo without missing a day. I guess I'll never really understand the obsession some have with the snowflake status some gear brings, but then again, I don't fuss about what some people I'll never play with on some other server are wearing, be it the pimpest of pimp gear or random fail fodder.

Make it possible to farm 250 alex/day consistently. This is ridiculous ffs! You need nearly twice as much alexandrite compared to relic D:

[Necronus]

I got excited when I saw there were a few new pages added to this thread over the weekend and silly me thought there was something new announced.

Nope, just trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls. :/

Hey, you remember when this thread was for tracking dev posts? I thought I was the only one.

[Rehn]

I got excited when I saw there were a few new pages added to this thread over the weekend and silly me thought there was something new announced.

Nope, just trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls. :/

Indeed.

[The Blackrose]

Are people really responding to Hyan?

Best question asked these past couple of pages.

[Hyan]

Technically, all you have to do is be not AFK when the item drops, because it will stay in the loot pool for five minutes. Excluding Dynamis - Beaucedine and Dynamis - Qufim you can easily be in any Dynamis in that five minute period from anywhere in the game with a minimal amount of planning. Back in March 2010 they added enchantment earrings for cities and towns, like this. Which means that you can be in the city or town connected or next to a dynamis zone in less than a minute (including time to fumble around your Mog Sack or Mog Satchel to get it out and equip it), with three minutes to get to the Trail Markings/Hieroglyphics and a minute to zone in and cast lots. You could pay seven groups of people to farm seven different Dynamis zones (Bastok, San d'Oria, Windurst, Jeuno, Xarcabard, Valkurm, Buburimu, and Tavnazia) and only have to be logged on for two hours a day. (Oh, I was wrong, you would either have to have a WHM or sub WHM to teleport you to Xarcabard or have a Vahzl Ring, so my argument is inherently flawed.)

That'd still be a logistical nightmare to pull off. You really think this would make the situations equal? It's not like obtaining the currency is -hard- when you have the money to do so. Your system requires all sorts of bullshit contracts and manpower at specific timeframes to even function, plus the money, not to mention the strict time limits that could shit you in the ear.

But now that we see how much bullshit you have to make up to create a somewhat equal scenario (except it even isnt) it really should tell us just how viable this moronic alternative of yours is. And what a valid critique that was indeed, making you think all that stuff to try to make up for it.

If you want an equal scenario more would have to be done to make it happen, an overhaul at the very least. Thus we can cut the bullshit and forget about even trying to compare them.

Are people really responding to Hyan?

Oh man, lol.

[Septimus]

That'd still be a logistical nightmare to pull off. You really think this would make the situations equal? It's not like obtaining the currency is -hard- when you have the money to do so. Your system requires all sorts of bullshit contracts and manpower at specific timeframes to even function, plus the money, not to mention the strict time limits that could shit you in the ear.

But now that we see how much bullshit you have to make up to create a somewhat equal scenario (except it even isnt) it really should tell us just how viable this moronic alternative of yours is. And what a valid critique that was indeed, making you think all that stuff to try to make up for it.

If you want an equal scenario more would have to be done to make it happen, an overhaul at the very least. Thus we can cut the bullshit and forget about even trying to compare them.

Actually, you are arguing against this guy:

Look at it like this: if you had to do a set number of a certain activity, you know you aren't going to get anything out of doing said activity before you've hit the magical number of tries.
Meanwhile, when you have a RNG each time could be 'the one' where you get what you're looking for. It's an incentive to keep going, meanwhile knowing you won't get jack shit for 40 more tries can be discouraging.

The problem multiplies when the devs want you to do this activity for a long time. Certain number of items are generated to the game, at the rate which is decided by the devs. If two people get "points" that count towards the item, the number of tries required per person needs to be roughly half of the drop rate of said item in a RNG system. Since when these two people have received enough points, two items are generated to the game. So yeah, like that and with Salvage drop rates you're gonna grind that shit until your eyes bleed. Roughly as long as you'd have in a RNG system, except this time you know exactly how more many times you need to go through that shit before you get anything, and not more or less. And that's gonna be a shitton of times. And in this situation, you know what? Knowing that each try, each time you go there might be the one, it's an incentive right there. Either way in the long run you aren't going to be better off no matter which system you pick especially if the whole game worked that way.

I didn't actually read your second paragraph before responding to the first one, so let me just add this: combining both systems means twice as many items generated, means both drop rate and points needed have to be balanced according to that fact. With Salvage's already low drop rates, yeah, I can't say I'd be a fan of that 'adjustment'.



People are also a lot more willing to give up when they realize the amount of work needed to get there, with no way of getting anything beforehand. The simple realization that you will be there for ages to come and nothing will change that is going to fuck some minds up. Having the carrot be an incentive for each run helps a ton.

As for your system having a 'problem', they can control the X however they please, just like the drop rates. If they don't want to add new stuff they'll just adjust the X/drop rates accordingly.

If the playerbase refuses to cope with the changes Tanaka, as a rational businessman although shitty at anything customer-relations related, will act accordingly. That can mean a lot of things, but usually it comes down to two: they try harder because they feel the revenue is worth it or they keep allocating resources elsewhere because their calculations have indicated it's no longer worth the hassle to fight back.

Competing MMO's comes down to WoW and WoW only, although people may be more likely to actually quit the scene after 9? years. Maybe that will change, but considering the past efforts I'll remain skeptical although promising candidates exist.



Well that's very logical of you to say as a consumer but companies don't function like that. At least those who are still around don't. Realizing this would go a long way towards acceptance, because there is simply no alternative.

When people realize how much currency they are going to have to farm and buy to get a relic, they are going to give up. Where as if there is a one in terri-bad chance of them going into Dynamis and getting the relic that they want this will keep them playing and paying.

Have you realized that you are arguing against yourself yet?

[NynJa]

Look at it like this: if you had to do a set number of a certain activity, you know you aren't going to get anything out of doing said activity before you've hit the magical number of tries.
Meanwhile, when you have a RNG each time could be 'the one' where you get what you're looking for. It's an incentive to keep going, meanwhile knowing you won't get jack shit for 40 more tries can be discouraging.

Points system...like with ampoules or tokens, or whatever...I'd rather know I have to fight something 40 times to get what I want instead of having to fight it anywhere between 1 and 150 times to get what I want.

"The one" only goes so far when its starting to hit "the one"hundredth.


Remember the original relic upgrade trials? "deliver a relic killshit to 2000 mobs". Are you serious bro?

Emps easier when the pop timer for Gukamatz was 1 hour+? Ok. I was talking about pre-nerfs.

Just fyi, it used to be 30-60 min.

[mallister]

guys i am so sorry, honestly didn't mean to start a 7 page shitfest derail...

[Septimus]

guys i am so sorry, honestly didn't mean to start a 7 page shitfest derail...

It's OK, it is obviously something that was festering or it wouldn't have exploded the way that it did.

I moved the posts here instead of throwing them away so that the discussion can continue in a non-derailing place.

[mallister]

love him or hate him, i guess it boils down to if you think that grinding one event for 2 years to get sidegrade items, or that event design that excludes 95% of your player base is good game design or not. was never much of a question for me.

[NynJa]

Excluding Dynamis - Beaucedine and Dynamis - Qufim you can easily be in any Dynamis in that five minute period from anywhere in the game with a minimal amount of planning.

If you're allready at a home town, you could always OP warp to bcd and qufim, and make it to the markings in about a minute in qufim, and maybe 2 minutes in bcd if you're /thf.

[Septimus]

If you're allready at a home town, you could always OP warp to bcd and qufim, and make it to the markings in about a minute in qufim, and maybe 2 minutes in bcd if you're /thf.

Well, I figured that people would want to HP in Lower Jeuno so they could sit around looking pretty. If you wanted some extra planning you could also have sprinter's shoes on so that they were charged and ready to go for the run though Beaucedine, but I wanted to make it as fair as possible in the utterly absurd scenario.

[Lucavi]

Wow, this thread is awesome. Sad to see XI heading back to RotZ, though.

[Lyall]

For now Relics are becoming a whole lot easier because its that much easier to farm currency due to level cap increase and hugely increased supply.
The 1500 heavy plates is only considerably hefty now because the event is still new, people are learning strategies and so on..
but if you think its a grindfest, think about how Mythic upgraders must feel. Alex comes from an old event with far less interest, much lower supply and far higher item requirements. Your only source of the item comes from repeating 4 structured instances that are up to 100minute affairs and you can't exactly do it whenever you like.

VW as it is has 6 different 30min battles where the plates drop and altho they drop in far lower quantities if it drops for you, you can be assured your share of it and don't have to worry about others with the same drop goals. Not to mention you also get EXP and Cruor on the side, other pieces of good eq and a handful of items you can actually sell to finance your plate buys.
The system is better off not just in terms of difficulty, but also its in-game socio-economic practicality. The fact that it will get easier in the next level cap raise is just icing on the cake.

Just wanted to poke this one since it was brought up elsewhere and there was a, in my opinion, mostly valid counterpoint.

Pre-and-post Dynamis could be done with small groups and remain profitable. Especially after the first level increase it wasn't unreasonable to find groups of 5-10 taking a zone and farming it to near-completion, if not entirely done.

Salvage was capable of being done with small numbers even before the first level cap increase, especially if you were intent on only farming Alexandrite and ignoring clears or armor. As we received more power in the form of armor and raw level correction, Salvage and Dynamis took a steady dive in terms of risk/reward.

Now that we have seen the first spot of gear in a post-Abyssea world, does anyone honestly believe that at 99 there are going to be four-man groups clearing the tiers of VW that drop worthwhile plates? Not to mention that the droprate is directly influenced and furthermore enhanced by bringing more bodies; Conversely Dynamis and Salvage don't give a care how many bodies are in zone, if the Rampart was dropping two Alex it was only dropping two Alex. Similarly, outside of Treasure Hunter and the random 100coin, drops were the same thing if you had 6 or 64 present. The only difference is how long it takes you to farm your fill from the zone. It is just as profitable to dual-box Salvage as it is to bring an entire alliance. I haven't stuck my head into Dynamis much since the update to it but from what I understand it is still possible to be bringing out a large reservoir of coins in a duo or trio. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.

I'm rambling a bit so I'll wrap up. Relics and Mythics are miserable grinds made easier by having friends along to speed up the process. Voidwatch actively penalizes you for not bringing everyone you know on a different job to maximize the chance of each individual possibly helping you with progress. This is further complicated by the relative ease of Dynamis and Salvage and the current mostly-sidegrades in the 90>95 gear since the incredible boost in potency and power we saw in the initial level cap updates seems to be petering out.

[Neviskio]

I guess I finally understand why the game is slowly going back to where it was more a pain than fun playing it.AS I understand tanaka was somehow in charge of voidwatch which has a terribad droprate system, again.Individual drops with shitload rates(never got anything worthy from there yet.) and people getting doubles /tossing them because LULZ individualz can't trade.I kinda feel the game is going backwards again and I'm so scared of that...why the hell don't they realize this guy is a disaster more than a good thing?

I mean, asian mmos have an history of being mono-grind and generally not "fun" for a lot of people(and if you think grind=skill god forbid you.Really.).Abyssea didn't bring out the bads, abyssea didn't ruin our perfect ffxi, abyssea just did make the game less of a fucking pain in the ass and a job and more like a GAME, which is supposed to be fun.People were bad before, and will be in the future.Now if you had fun before, good for you, but I guess the new team had realized in 2011 most players don't have fun anymore grinding on stupid long ass things and might want something new.Seems tanaka is still living in 2002-japan design which is generally not a pleasurable thing for most.Don't get me wrong, most mmos don't even live up to a year and ffxi had made an awesome job staying alive probably due to tanaka work somehow, but still, most of the decisions under his rule were just game-design-disasters in every possible way.I'm not an expert but I kinda work as a game designer so in my personal opinion the new fresh things they put inside the game did only good things.Again, it didn't do anything new that wasn't already in the game, just made it more evident.Instead it kinda saved the situation on most of the unreasonable situations.

I still wonder why even the guy himself doesn't realize that he might be doing something horribly wrong.For god's sake ffxiv was an announced trainwreck starting from alpha and beta, even a college beginner in design could see that it was bound to crash and burn into the state it's now.And they bring him back too on ffxi which was having a really good moment?I don't have numbers but I surely seen more people starting the game now than in the era before for god's sake.People even having fun doing things that before they could've cried only thinking(dynamis for example), jeez, I really hope he learned something or he's going to bring some good pain to ffxi again.

inb4 rage, and no, I didn't like much ffxi pre-abyssea also because I didn't play it much.I'm a newfag probably but I kinda liked abyssea and some of the changes(SOME.) that they made.

[Xantavia]

It seems that there are players that will never be satisfied. If its too easy to get, they get bored because they have it all. Too time consuming and it takes too long. Same thing I see with missions. Blow through it in a day and its too short. Take 2 days because of JP midnight and/or a lot of travel time and its too long. For these people, there is no happy medium.

**disclaimer** I'm a casual *gasp* posting on BG, whos several expansions behind, take it slow and enjoying it. (Got salvage access a few months back, and upgraded to dusk+1 hand/feet while everybody else was getting their 20th full set of emp+2)

[Churchill]

If I blow through it in a day it's too short, if it takes 2 days because I have an artificial wait period due to JP midnight then it's too long and it's fucking stupid.

[Kegsay]

Well, you know, the general idea behind MMOs is that there is constantly new content to do to keep the player base interested.

If its too easy to get, they get bored because they have it all. Too time consuming and it takes too long.

This is very true, but the easy remedy is simply make more content. But wait, FFXI doesn't have the manpower to do this right? Well they certainly succeeded with Abyssea. I can't see why they can't create more fun and enjoyable content. Voidwatch sucks because of the dodgy lotting system and that you need a huge amount of people to even do it. This is not fun. It's frustrating with the lots, and cuts out a lot of people who only run in small groups. Abyssea is the complete opposite, allowing small groups (with atma aids) and providing challenging but do-able drop rates (especially with the weakness system increasing drop rates).

Yes there are some 'logistical' issues such as free zone slots, but realistically there is no excuses these days with THE WHOLE PLAYER BASE AS A TESTING GROUNDS (hiTestServer). Why don't they dream up of some CRAZY SYSTEM and you know, say, "hey guyz, test this out, what do you think?" I don't know what the hell they are doing, do they just have no ideas or something? Abyssea had unique never before seen ideas (lights/atmas/weaknesses/etc), whereas Voidwatch just copies Abyssea and poorly (atmacite, same weakness system but crappier effects, etc). I could go on all day, but I think other people have for me already.

[Hyan]

When people realize how much currency they are going to have to farm and buy to get a relic, they are going to give up. Where as if there is a one in terri-bad chance of them going into Dynamis and getting the relic that they want this will keep them playing and paying.

Have you realized that you are arguing against yourself yet?

Have you realized that what you are saying is bullshit and not comparable? Because that's what I've been telling you for a while now. I'm not advocating that my system would be the better one, when I've repeatedly only told you how much the two would differ from each other, while you try to shove them down into same umbrella desperately to make a point.

In either case, the extreme nature of obtaining a relic is an exception, not the rule. My system may not keep them playing and paying, but at least they think they actually have a shot, instead of having none at all.

"The one" only goes so far when its starting to hit "the one"hundredth.

Yes, the threshold could be somewhere *up there*. But the better the chances, the less appealing point system ultimately becomes, and the more appealing the carrot dangling above you every time you go in is.

The title of this thread is the perfect indicator of how rational the discussion is btw. I applaud whoever named it.

[Cymmina]

Well, you know, the general idea behind MMOs is that there is constantly new content to do to keep the player base interested.

That's *supposed* to be the idea. These days, most players have accepted the fact that you don't get new content without shelling out $$$ for an expansion.