Tanaka Rage!

[dasva]

Except that it wasn't your paycheck that happened to it was just the first one he handed out that day (all others got nothing of course) and that it would be too hard to wrest it from Mr. T's hands by yourself anyways. So in order to increase your odds of even being eligible you grouped together with 10 other employees in order to ensure at least 1 of you was first in line just to see everyone else do the same. And when you finally do get first in line and you don't all get kicked in the groin your golf buddy grabs it and runs

[Gredival]

With a high enough payout that system is still worth it. What needs to be recognized is the permanency of value here. When we had this loot on Kings and this loot was top line irreplaceable from US release til forever. Is it worth getting kicked in the balls instead of getting your paycheck every week for your normal salary? Fuck no. Is it worth getting kicked in the balls 99 times out of 100 with a possible payout of never having to work again in your life? Holy shit I would do it and you're a fool if you say otherwise (of course assuming no permanent damage here).

As far as theft? If you let someone ninja an Adaberk/Ridill you were doing it wrong with how you handled passing (no lot until everyone passes but the alliance leader officer and the winning member).

[mallister]

all we can tell from your rambling bullshit is that it's ok to kick you in the jimmy repeatedly as long as we wave a big enough doughnut at you. gotcha.

[arshesney]

People clearly hate grinding with a set number in mind. They should make it next update so that you randomly level up with a decreasing chance the higher level you get! It really gives people something to look forward to. Merits of course should be random too.

Tanaka's FFXIV

[Rehn]

all we can tell from your rambling bullshit is that it's ok to kick you in the jimmy repeatedly as long as we wave a big enough doughnut at you. gotcha.

Maybe its the choice of words, but I found myself chuckling at this. All I remember about the old FFXI dev team are "PS2 limitations" and very, very sad excuses for interview answers.

[Gredival]

all we can tell from your rambling bullshit is that it's ok to kick you in the jimmy repeatedly as long as we wave a big enough doughnut at you. gotcha.

What you call rambling bullshit is a measured and thorough defense of Tanaka in evaluating the question you yourself presented "grinding one event for 2 years to get sidegrade items, or that event design that excludes 95% of your player base is good game design"

Feel free to continue to make sarcastic potshots, or you can actually come to the table and defend the opposite position.

[Mojo]

What you call rambling bullshit is a measured and thorough defense of Tanaka in evaluating the question you yourself presented "grinding one event for 2 years to get sidegrade items, or that event design that excludes 95% of your player base is good game design"

Feel free to continue to make sarcastic potshots, or you can actually come to the table and defend the opposite position.

SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY GUYS.

2011 and you're here defending kings. GJ.

[Septimus]

What you call rambling bullshit is a measured and thorough defense of Tanaka in evaluating the question you yourself presented "grinding one event for 2 years to get sidegrade items, or that event design that excludes 95% of your player base is good game design"

Feel free to continue to make sarcastic potshots, or you can actually come to the table and defend the opposite position.

Players decided that Abyssea was best done in low-man groups, not the Devs. There is no law that states that you only have to go in with proc jobs, people just decided that they were selfish douchebags and to cut everyone else out, or to get away from the selfish douchebags and go low-man. And it would be an argument that it was excluding parts of the player base only if we didn't possess the ability to change jobs. I leveled THF because of Abyssea and it was one of the best decisions that I ever made in this game.

I literally would have never leveled THF if not for Abyssea because THF was such a painful process leveling it as a sub job twice. ("Was that the Sneak Attack sound? That means it is time to do laps around the mob!") my THF has benefited my LS a great deal and it has been pretty peachy for me also. Is it my favorite job? No, that would be SMN. But any more it is probably my most useful job. You either have to adapt or suffer.

[mallister]

@gredival: don't really think i need to defend the opposing position, your argument kind of speaks for itself. if you like that sort of thing, hey, work out. many other folks find it kind of retarded. difference of perspective i guess.

[Gredival]

Players decided that Abyssea was best done in low-man groups, not the Devs. There is no law that states that you only have to go in with proc jobs, people just decided that they were selfish douchebags and to cut everyone else out, or to get away from the selfish douchebags and go low-man. And it would be an argument that it was excluding parts of the player base only if we didn't possess the ability to change jobs. I leveled THF because of Abyssea and it was one of the best decisions that I ever made in this game.

I literally would have never leveled THF if not for Abyssea because THF was such a painful process leveling it as a sub job twice. ("Was that the Sneak Attack sound? That means it is time to do laps around the mob!") my THF has benefited my LS a great deal and it has been pretty peachy for me also. Is it my favorite job? No, that would be SMN. But any more it is probably my most useful job. You either have to adapt or suffer.

...not sure if I'm following this post correctly, but I think you miss two points at hand.

1. We're not discussing "exclusion" as relating to the player base being excluded due to proc jobs and other bullshit gimmicks in Abyssea; we're talking about exclusion as to old XI content vs. new XI content.

2. I'm defending exclusion.

@gredival: don't really think i need to defend the opposing position, your argument kind of speaks for itself. if you like that sort of thing, hey, work out. many other folks find it kind of retarded. difference of perspective i guess.

So what's the terminal result? People just post derisive 1-liners (because that is what 4chan has turned the internet into and there is no place for debating out differences of opinions any longer)? We default to whatever option is most popular (because surely majority vote has always and consistently been an indicator of absolute right/wrong)?

This isn't just about perspective and liking it. I'm not just saying I like it. And I'm not even saying you should like it. I'm questioning your rationality for not liking it and offering reasons why you should.

[Mojo]

A game in which the player is not allowed to play is the best kind of game.

[mallister]

clearly. i'm won over by this infallable logic.

[Colenzo]

A game in which the player is not allowed to play is the best kind of game.

i dont get it

[dasva]

Defending exclusion... wow

[Gredival]

A game in which the player is not allowed to play is the best kind of game.

This is not about "not being allowed to play." Anyone at any time was free to go camp whatever mob they wanted against whoever they wanted.

Playing is distinctly different from rewards, or more distinctly the accessibility of rewards. I argue the fact you play does not guarantee to you the right to an Adaberk (e.g. Kings suck make them pop mobs). Or infinite Dynamis currency (e.g. omg we can't AOE proc for super drops anymore). Or whatever else you want that you think is too hard to get (e.g. 200k brews so that anyone can beat any mob if they just "work" hard enough to get the brew cruor, no matter how retarded they are)

Defending exclusion... wow

I believe players accomplishments should be limited by their ability. It's called meritocracy. If you can't do something, then you shouldn't get the reward. Everyone should get to play how they want, but that doesn't mean they are entitled to rewards from content they cannot or will not do nor should the game be changed to remove such content because the majority cannot/will not do it.

Your subscription fee entitles you to play, not to be fed any and all items you want on a silver platter. Or be given a gameshark potion.

[mallister]

what you're really advocating is your right to afk in jtown with gear 95% of the rest of the server couldn't get because they weren't botting, which is all kings ever were.

[Manf]

Not about not being allowed to play. Anyone at any time was free to go camp whatever mob they wanted against whoever they wanted.

Playing is distinctly different from the accessibility of rewards. I argue the fact you play does not guarantee to you the right to an Adaberk. Or infinite Dynamis currency. Or whatever else you want that you think is too hard to get.

So your hysterics that abyssea ruined the game stems from what? Because a large majority of low~mid tier players can get the best gear now? News flash, a ton of low~midtier players had the best gear before. The amount of complete retards running around with ridills, and dalmaticas, and whatnot was already immense before. It is the same thing now, except it is more accessible. Basing an arguement that the game is being ruined because of abyssea is quite ridiculous when the game was already in decline because of the old system anyway.

Gear exclusivity doesn't mean anything; truly terrible players still don't have the best of the best. They are still running around in full pink, or a smattering of +1s. What abyssea did was open up the best gear to the ambitious who maybe didn't have the time to camp fafnir, or did not care for the bureaucracies that linkshells perpetuated. This is coming from someone who had ridill, and dalmatica, and everything ground had to offer outside of dring. The only saving grace before abyssea was the 6-man content TOAU offered. That is the one thing I wish they would do moving forward: gear content towards ~a single party.

Abyssea is and was not perfect. They could have scaled a lot of it back, especially Apoc atma. The simple fact is they made the potentially soul crushing task of regearing your jobs for the coming level caps easy. Which I personally appreciated, because I had toyed with quitting when I first heard of the cap for much the same reason you seem to dislike abyssea: all my shinnies weren't going to be the best anymore. I quickly got over it because it is a ridiculous stance.

[machiko]

Maybe FFXI is taking FFXIVs thunder and this is all intentional..there was a lot of rage about how much attention FFXI was getting during the aby times and how all the XIV players were going to play FFXI. I can't think of many other reasons they could get everything so right, be attentive on the offical forums fixing many things players were concerned about and then go back to being arrogant pricks again, shitting over all the good will they laid down.

Regardless we are heading back to horribly low drop rates, time sinks assosciated with everything to ludicrous levels, probably new HNM to bot (cheapest long term content they ever added...for them), nerfing of jobs, mass gil sinks, more mass scale endgame that requires you to devote your life to a LS and do events at whenever they can all participate as well as marginal sidegrades for rewards.

Amazing they can build the game up to be an enjoyable success again and then go retarded and go back to fail mode, I know the old ways were very cheap and aby content required more investment but cheap doesn't work if you lose mass numbers of subs .

[Lordender]

Thats such a stupid reason to hate content because "Everyone else has the gear I do!" who gives a shit, its a game, its not a "Popularity Pageant". Here's a newsflash, salvage gear really wasent even rare on my server pre-duping shenanigans, ton of people had morrigan robes, uskane bodies, I had a ton of that " old exclusive gear" on my old character and not a fuck was given over who else had it because I had better things to do than worry about what Jane or Johnny got from x or y event.

I bet the same fuckers who whine about abyssea are the same ones who had no problem getting king bodies off Einherjar when most people struggled vs botters for years to get theirs vs 130-200 people in Aery. If you're going to call Abyssea nothing but "hand outs to casuals" then you might as well call Einherjar the same fucking thing when the feather system got fixed.

[Gredival]

gear 95% of the rest of the server couldn't get because they weren't botting, which is all kings ever were.

Ah the bot argument. Here is my prepared response.

If this is true, it is primarily an argument for a better anti-botting system. This is like saying tests shouldn't be used in school become some pupils cheat it screws others over in the process. Schools don't do this because there are benefits to testing and because there's a more intuitive solution: fix the cheating.

Similarly World Spawns offer a unique advantages World Spawns blend a bit of "most time dedication" (in a communal sense; the group that puts in the most hours, when you consider each individual member's contributions separately, tends to have a claiming advantage) with direct competition (which is in itself a good, and also has the secondary benefit of creating item rarity), and skill test (you don't get to wipe and try again, you mess up if someone's better than you they will kill it instead).

Therefore rather than forfeit the advantages of the system, the simpler solution to to eliminate the cheating.

Let me inform you of something funny. The reason cheating exists, and the reason people bitch about accessibility of gear is the same: Feelings of self-deserving

In my experience botters aren't necessarily pro-HNM. Most botters I know in fact hate HNM; they bot precisely because of the reasons people are saying they hate HNMs. It's time commitment without a chance to reward. Because they don't want to waste X hours doing HNMs to not even get anything, much less not get a chance at getting nothing, they want to maximize claiming to reduce wasted time.

Their overinflated sense of self esteem makes them think that playing the game means entitlement to all of the best shit it has to offer. And thus when they can't get it? They seek out a way to dominate the claims. Not through sheer numbers, not through camping more, but through paying Maury his dirty money.

Thats such a stupid reason to hate content because "Everyone else has the gear I do!" who gives a shit, its a game, its not a "Popularity Pageant". Here's a newsflash, salvage gear really wasent even rare on my server pre-duping shenanigans, ton of people had morrigan robes, uskane bodies, I had a ton of that " old exclusive gear" on my old character and not a fuck was given over who else had it because I had better things to do than worry about what Jane or Johnny got from x or y event.

I bet the same fuckers who whine about abyssea are the same ones who had no problem getting king bodies off Einherjar when most people struggled vs botters for years to get theirs vs 130-200 people in Aery. If you're going to call Abyssea nothing but "hand outs to casuals" then you might as well call Einherjar the same fucking thing when the feather system got fixed.

First, nice to see you fail, for the second time, to answer a response directly targeted at you, preferring to wax on generically about points that were already dissected and destroyed.

Second, I did in fact hate the Einherjar change.

Third, see above for response to generic botting argument.

Fourth, if the game is just for fun and isn't a competition, then why do you need the best/rare gear to have fun?

The fact is despite what anyone says about gear, no one wants to be the chump. No one wants to sit on the side and see someone else with better shit.

But the problem is that even if no one wants to be the loser, some people just are. Lots of people are bad. Lots of people need to get carried on someone else's back to accomplish anything. Ever do a shout group and end up with some retard meele in Courage and Balance rings at 75? HNM players could regale each other with tale after tale of groups of retards rolling into Aery without a clue and getting curb stomped. And the worst part is that they will never accept they are bad and they will never accept that some gear should and is out of their reach.