Poll- Heavy Metal

[Ivve]

I sincerely do not mean to be an asshole to you, but I think that's giving them far, far more credit than deserved. Nothing they have ever done since I started playing in 2003 has ever indicated to me that that would be the case. It's much more likely that they simply do not have perspective on what is a reasonable time investment, as none of them actually play.

Almost any time I have seen content revamped or adjusted, there was a noticeable lack of interest and/or participation from the playerbase. There's no keeping people busy if they simply opt out completely, which seems to often be the case. Relic weapons didn't keep the vast majority of us busy for a very long time, because the requirements were easily out of reach for most people who didn't have a linkshell, a ton of gil, or a credit card with a high limit at their disposal. How many people do you know actually making a mythic weapon? We just don't do the content.

Content that doesn't get adjusted after MAX LEVELS OF ULTRA COMPLAINT, often dies. Look at ZNM, look at pankration, look at the state of PW/AV before new content changed the game. Even sea struggled for a long time, and never quite caught on in the way that sky did because of the introduction behind a long line of (initially) difficult/tedious missions and then subsequent ultrashit pop system. Just making something tedious and difficult to obtain does not necessarily guarantee prolonged participation, but perhaps from a small fraction of completionists. Retention of more players > retention of less players.

[Slycer]

I wouldn't call it a change in difficulty as much as a change in tediousness (though I suppose in FFXI, difficulty often stems from tediousness so it's hard to differentiate the two). I think the only time that they've gone back and significantly reduced the difficulty of something was with CoP missions. Other stuff like Alexandrite requirement (50k to 30k), sky adjustments (pop items, chance at 2 pop item drops), sea adjustments (guaranteed virtues), Dynamis adjustments, salvage drop rates, magians trials changes, expansion scenario KI acquisition adjustments, and just about everything else (the list goes on and on), reduced tediousness but not difficulty. Just about all of the content in the game has been adjusted to reduce tediousness at some point after its introduction. I can't even think of one exception.

[Ivve]

I agree with that. That's definitely more what I was getting at. To be honest, my objection lies mostly with these items coming from events that require so many people. I do not believe large groups (12+) working for the benefit of a single person is something that often works out well for a majority of people. I do not like to operate within that sort of setting. I don't really care that much about the items being salable. People pay others for rare/ex drops as it is. Imposing a rare/ex limitation on the items simply makes it slightly more difficult to get them into your inventory. Doesn't prevent you from just blowing a ton of gil on them.

[Foldypaws]

Just about all of the content in the game has been adjusted to reduce tediousness at some point after its introduction. I can't even think of one exception.

Voidwalkers haven't been touched.

ZNMs and sea haven't been touched, aside from making AV 100%, and PW psuedo-100% (trophies).

[Slycer]

Voidwalkers haven't been touched.

ZNMs and sea haven't been touched, aside from making AV 100%, and PW psuedo-100% (trophies).

VWNMs are new so I'm sure adjustments will be coming, and the adjustments you mention for ZNM and sea are exactly the kind of adjustments I'm talking about. Also, don't forget originally sea had a chance (not guaranteed) drop rate on virtues. It was like 50%. When they made those 100%, it had an enormous impact on reducing the tediousness of sea.

[dasva]

Half of the reducing the tediousness of sea was actually making it so easy anyone could get there quickly

[Foldypaws]

VWNMs are new so I'm sure adjustments will be coming, and the adjustments you mention for ZNM and sea are exactly the kind of adjustments I'm talking about. Also, don't forget originally sea had a chance (not guaranteed) drop rate on virtues. It was like 50%. When they made those 100%, it had an enormous impact on reducing the tediousness of sea.

Stages 1-3 on ZNM are just as tedious. It's no easier to acquire zeni, you still have to rebuild seals every time you want to pop something new.

Also, virtues were like 90% before the change. It was either virtue or torque 100%, with the torque being ~10%. I'll give you that's a marginal improvement though.

[Septimus]

I don't believe the majority of people with an empyrean weapon are able to just buy the plates they need. With the current absolutely shitty droprate on plates/pouches, imagine the frustration if they were /ex on top of that. That would have been the final nail in the coffin for me, my Ukon would stay 90 forever.

Were the plates exclusive the Exmpyrean trials wouldn't require 1,500 unless there is an exceedingly high chance of Heavy Metal Pouches. The target should have been balanced so that it would take about 4 to 6 months of doing Voidwatch daily (or equivalent since you can save them to spam) to finish up a level 95 Empyrean. That would be high enough to make it worthwhile, but not so high as to demoralize everyone. Relic owners would get to gloat that they could churn them out faster, Empyrean owners would be a but butthurt at first but people would either get over it or feel like they do now, and people trying to get Mythic weapons would still be as fucked as ever.

[Ivve]

Stages 1-3 on ZNM are just as tedious. It's no easier to acquire zeni, you still have to rebuild seals every time you want to pop something new.

And how well did that go with the community? ZNM never really caught on. Is it any wonder why?

All I'm saying is that they need to drop this bullshit where they design everything around tedium. I think making the content more accessible breathed more life into this game than anything they've done in a long time. People have been excited to get on, do shit, and finally actually get shit. I think when you put things within reach, people actually participate in more of the content. People who used to laugh at ever getting a relic actually think it's within their grasp now, and see dynamis in a completely new light. People get online and fucking farm multiple empyreans. Do you actually know anyone who was ever really excited about farming even one relic or mythic back in the dark ages? Wake the fuck up people. Tedious != fun. Tedium is not an indicator of challenge, difficulty, or player skill. Yes, the content will come to an end for some sooner than others in any system where shit has decent drop rates or more moderate requirements, but who fucking gives a shit? The game isn't going to last forever. I think it's much better to give people a somewhat shorter-lived experience that is really enjoyable, than one that drags on and on; that's frustrating or fraught with disappointment; that you eventually quit because it's just not worth the time you invest anymore. I quite honestly don't want to go back to running endlessly on the wheel for rewards that never materialize. Resigning myself to old dynamis style rules (who loved sponsored runs, anyone?) where we all farm for the master and eagerly await the glorious day sometime in the nebulous future when it finally finally will be our very own turn is infinitely unappealing to me. To borrow a phrase, fuck that with a thousand dicks.

P.S. Perhaps they should fucking adjust mythics. Pretty much follows the fucking formula, too tedious = low participation. That's a sign, and it doesn't point to good design.

[Khary]

Well said Ivve! I couldn't agree more!

[Foldypaws]

And how well did that go with the community? ZNM never really caught on. Is it any wonder why?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm defending ZNM as it currently exists. I'm just saying, SE hasn't adjusted every system to make it less tedious, even when it wasn't well received.

Sure, they *might* adjust it, because they've adjusted *some* of them. But they also might not, because they haven't adjusted all of them.

I'm not saying what they *should* do, just trying to comment on predictions of what they are *likely* to do.


(And actually, old dynamis wasn't too bad of a model at 75, when at least some of the Relic gear was good for most jobs, it was hard or impossible to solo, and the gear was relatively rare but not D.Ring or VW Body rare. Sure, you could have possibly made more money by paying for a share of the glass and splitting the currency at the end, but at least the sponsor in that case *was* fronting your 1m/N of the entry fee, so him getting currency wasn't as one sided as it is for free events, in which I'll agree it's not a good model.)

[dasva]

Personally I'd like to see more things that are really good to the point they should be a bit harder or take longer to get mostly just harder. And harder in a way that scales with the numbers you bring. So that way it can have a reasonable amount of tedium and difficulty for the average group of 1-3 while not making it super easy/fast for the guy that drags his whole ls.

[macross]

Well I'm not for super powerful things being obtainable by 1-3. Best shit should require 18 imho. Too bad relics and empys already can be, but future stuff should be hard enough you need the full ally.

[mallister]

except most of us will not be with a group as large as a full ally, unless we fill it with shout retards, which i for one refuse to have anything to do with. pass.

[Kuishen]

except most of us will not be with a group as large as a full ally, unless we fill it with shout retards, which i for one refuse to have anything to do with. pass.

This.

9 people on average show up to raids in my ls, and that is with 1 mule. Fuck filling half an alliance with random casuals.

[Mahoro]

Recruit more people then? At least enough people to make a full ally for LS event night. But not so much that you get overflow, which is always tough to deal with.

[Kalasin]

Recruit more people then? At least enough people to make a full ally for LS event night. But not so much that you get overflow, which is always tough to deal with.

I refuse to have a 18 people Linkshell. Not the first time I've said it, not the first one to say it. Go away.

Edit: And before you reply, we aren't the ones complaining about Heavy Metal plates and other drops. We are the ones saying we are doing perfectly fine as we are right now, and assuming 18 people per event would be normal is fucking stupid.

[Draylo]

Shout groups aren't that bad, I do many shout groups for Voidwatch and typically only well geared and decent players respond because they know what drops from it. When I first started doing VW I got nothing but idiots but that will happen, at least now most people have temp item KI's to make things easier.

[Draylo]

I refuse to have a 18 people Linkshell. Not the first time I've said it, not the first one to say it. Go away.

Edit: And before you reply, we aren't the ones complaining about Heavy Metal plates and other drops. We are the ones saying we are doing perfectly fine as we are right now, and assuming 18 people per event would be normal is fucking stupid.

lol FFXI must be one of the only MMO where the community hates interacting with more than two others... It's a MMO, get over it.

[Kalasin]

And I have to use an ally for this why? I fail to understand your logic. We cap lights, without any problems. The 1/10 depop we might have to do is fuck all compared to having to deal with retards in your alliance. We don't suck as much as others, get over it.