Poll- Heavy Metal

[Draylo]

I'm a scrub for needing 12 people, but you are the pro for having to shout for people to do it? Please elaborate.

lol? I shout to fill spots for extra procs and increased kill speed after cap. Why would I want to finish slower?

[dasva]

Why would you do it in a big group if you could to it easier/faster in a small group?

(You wouldn't)

Idk as the people my ls competed for on omega back in the day. They would bring full allainces we'd bring 6-9. Think has something to do with the difficulty part and them sucking but I could be wrong. Then it's a matter not so much of if it can be done so much as if YOU can do it

[Yugl]

If you don't have basis to support that idea, other than the fact that other MMOs do that (i.e. no reason to believe that the proposal is good rather than standard), then why not apply that to all other aspects of FFXI and just make the game into an amalgamation of every generic MMO?

[Draylo]

There's a reason other MMO's encourage players to play with other players than themselves...

[Yugl]

There's a reason other MMO's encourage players to play with other players than themselves...

Playing with 6 other players is playing with someone other than yourself.

[Draylo]

Fights that require more people are more challenging, I don't know how that is hard to understand. Require more people not can have more people. Most of those 6 man groups are comprised of two boxed mules.

[dasva]

Probably hard to understand because it's flat out wrong. Can it be more challenging? Possibly. But it isn't by definition that way.

And really now the only reason people went so big on the 2boxed mule thing was due to the abyssea proc system requiring you to have people that had nothing to do with the sucess of the fight. VW just amplies that. And 3 2boxers is still not yourself. And I'd argue that no it isn't most. Like my current ls I'm the only one with multiple accounts

[Yugl]

Fights that require more people are more challenging, I don't know how that is hard to understand. Require more people not can have more people. Most of those 6 man groups are comprised of two boxed mules.

You can only make that claim by virtue of fractions. Both an 18-member group and a 6-member group can have 2 dual-boxers. For the 18-member group, that means 2/9ths of the members are dualboxers. For a 6-member group, that means 2/3 of the members are dual-boxers. Yet, none of that deals with the preference for using dual-boxers in one situation over another. Using a phrase some might recognize, it's statistically significant, but substantively irrelevant.

As for the initial statement, a player requirement obfuscates the correlation between numbers necessary and the difficulty of the event. Even if we accept the correlation, maximizing the required number (for victory) to the upper cap of the event creates problems for both causal and hardcore members. If an event requires hardcore members to bring 18 people, then what chance do casuals have? You're just trying to create a new AV.

[Kuishen]

1. Actually finding 18 competent people on a single server nowadays would be hard.
2. More people in the LS means more people wanting shit, and while that doesn't apply to VW Draylo is suggesting getting an event based LS. I was in a big ls for a long time and nobody got anything fast. Smaller LSs get shit done just as quick as big LSs and because of the smaller numbers, everybody gets what they want faster. It's simple math. There is a reason why most LSs are kept small these days.
3. More people at an event means a lot more management and a lot more time-wasting. People going to the bathroom, walking dogs, getting food etc.

Absolutely no benefit to having a larger LS. Even if there was. NOBODY is going to feed plates to a SINGLE PERSON for a couple of months to complete their empy. It's just not going to happen. Ever.

Before you call me out on complaining about the plates. I haven't. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. Do I think the system is flawed? Absolutely. As long as it stays that way I'll keep my complaints to myself and just not bother getting a 95 though.

[Gustave]

1. Actually finding 18 competent people on a single server nowadays would be hard.

Really now?

[Byrthnoth]

It has been hard to find 18 competent players on any server for the entire history of FFXI. The best you can really hope for is a core 8-10 competent players and then 5-7 players that are personable enough that you forgive them their faults.

[Septimus]

Just a word of note for this thread...

Keep it civil.

If I have to start moderating this, it isn't going to be pretty. I am pretty tired and fed up with a lot of things right now, you do not want to be the outlet for my frustration. From this point on, if you troll in this thread, you will get banned. If you resort to name calling, you will be banned. The whole point of this thread was to have a civil discussion; if you cannot have a civil discussion, go to the Spam forum because you will not be welcomed in this thread.

[Draylo]

It has been hard to find 18 competent players on any server for the entire history of FFXI. The best you can really hope for is a core 8-10 competent players and then 5-7 players that are personable enough that you forgive them their faults.

I think some people are stuck on the 18 number someone threw out earlier. I don't mean we should have NMs that require 18 people, but require a larger sized group, 8~12+ is a larger sized group imo and not "low man".

[Kuishen]

I think some people are stuck on the 18 number someone threw out earlier. I don't mean we should have NMs that require 18 people, but require a larger sized group, 8~12+ is a larger sized group imo and not "low man".

What the hell were you even arguing with Kalasin for then? His group is 8-9 I believe. Same with my shell.

[Draylo]

He was arguing over semantics and then Yugl blew things out of proportion trying to stay with the 18 number idk why.

[Yugl]

I was talking to a person who said to make events requiring a full alliance. A full alliance is 18. I was not talking to you; you interfered with my conversation with someone else. That you want to throw blame upon me is utter bullshit.

[Draylo]

That person made one post and never responded to you.. so yeah. I'll drop out of this discussion anyway, not worth it.

[Septimus]

I reiterate, keep it civil.

[macross]

The people wanting to lowman are just greedy and selfish. Quit making excuses. You want to do stuff with as few as possible to up the chance of you getting loot, while having to help as few other's get theirs as you possibly can. You want the best loot, yet you want to be able to get it with 6 people. There's plenty of stuff designed for lowmanning and 6 players, like bcnms and abyssea.

I feel VW was designed to require 18 people, that's why all the random triggers. A system where you bring more you have the chance to get more, due to more people looting, and higher trigger chances, and faster kill speed.

[Yugl]

I thought the random triggers were to encourage a diversity of classes rather than a magnitude of participants. Loot aside, recruitment is a problem. Do you want to have to cancel an event because one person needs a break? Do you want to have to tell someone to sit out since there's already 18 people?