Ifrit Battle

[Zzsark]

I'm banking on most of this required cross class BS becoming a thing of the past when jobs are introduced. Obviously a ways off so for now people are stuck grinding jobs they don't want to play, but after jobs are released and everyone gets all of the job quests done for their specific abilities I'm hoping that you will be able to bring a job and use only the skills available to that job and be effective. Now if only we weren't getting possibly 2? more primal type fights before jobs will be released.

[tol]

If this game were pre 1.19 I might understand the bitching of having to level a job to 36. Sentinel is one of the most amazing skills in XIV, you're doing yourself a disservice by not having it anyways :3

[Criosist]

Seriously? you wont level a job to 36 (which is not even 40% of the way to 50) for a skill that will help 24/7, sentinel is not only good for ifrit but nearly every fight that isnt over in less than 1 minute ....

[miokomioko]

Not the point, people.

[Neoscrilla]

What is the point by the way? =)

[Liminality]

What is the point by the way? =)

Herpa derp, why I need Sentinel for non-GLD class?

Maybe cause it's good for every class? :X

Edit: The same thing can be said about Defender. A mage not having Defender is even more ridiculous than not having Sentinel. Obviously, Defender II is better, but the gap from 10 to 48 is much larger than a gap from 1 to 36.

[Kaiyoko]

People should really stop looking @ the game as I don't have X class leveled so SE must be picking on me for not having X ability. The game is based on a system where you use abilities from other classes. With high lvl play they can expect players to be using multiple abilities from other classes. They also have put in a mechanic so those w/o it can still defeat Ifrit, just at a higher difficulty. The player / party need to figure out what do I need to do to survive. Is it kill more nails? Or use Abilities at my disposal to reduce dmg? That's for them to decide. There shouldn't just be one single way to win a fight.

You could complain that Second Wind II makes the fight easier so they should clearly nerf it. No that's wrong, you don't need it to win, it just makes it easier. The same can be said w/ other abilities. Each class you have higher in this game gives you a winder variety of option on the ability side for survivability. Sentinal in this case just happens to be a very viable option to use at this moment in the fight, so you might as well use it. The whole fight isn't just push Sentinal > Ifrit weapon =D. It just makes it easier and a treat to those who leveled multiple classes.

[Niiro]

So you can either power through it with everyone having sentinel or kill more spikes to make it survivable...

That almost sounds like strategizing. *gasp*

[Kaiyoko]

So you can either power through it with everyone having sentinel or kill more spikes to make it survivable...

That almost sounds like strategizing. *gasp*

You're missing my point. Consider the group doesn't have everyone w/ Sentinel. There are still other options in reducing dmg.

[Niiro]

Er, think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

Was agreeing with you that you don't need sentinel, if your group doesn't have it you simply adapt your strategy.

[miokomioko]

There is a responsibility in game design that often gets overlooked, especially for MMORPGs. No matter how much freedom and versatility you give a player or group of players... 99% of the time they will take the path of least resistance. They will almost always do what's easiest, quickest, and whatever takes the least amount of immediate preparation/money/skill. All the player freedom goes out the window as soon as one option is easier than another. The designers are actually indirectly pushing players down said path by not keeping the playing field as even as possible. Even more so when the content in question requires a full group of players.

I don't think anyone was really arguing against leveling multiple classes to be more useful in general... and no one is debating Sentinel's amazing utility. It's just that they have created a situation that makes one of the more currently important pieces of content significantly more difficult for the average Joe to experience because of how players generally react to what they think or hear is the "optimal" strategy and when that strategy involves grinding on a class they don't care to play. I can't count how many times I have heard people back out of Darkhold or Ifrit runs because "we need all Archers" or "we need all Lancers".

They have allowed battle strategy to be bypassed by simply leveling a different class which is the wrong way to do things. I don't think Sentinel should be adjusted, but I feel it's a possible repurcussion since it is being used specifically to make this instance easier than it was designed to be. I could see it eventually being even weaker when cross-classed, or I can see Hellfire itself bypassing its effect. Yeah, people with more time on their hands are going to always have an edge with a system like this (and MMORPGs in general), but this one single ability gives far too much of an edge for getting the best weapons in the game. Comparing it to Second Wind in the context of getting killed or not killed right when the battle gets difficult is laughable.

Anyhow, I was initially just curious how manageable Hellfire becomes with each Nail removed as an alternative for those people who don't have Sentinel (for whatever their reasons are). Also, someone ask Yoshi in this next live thing what breaking Ifrit's damn horns actually does.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Ya know no one bitched about Sentinel when people used it for speed runs. You use it for quickstriding, ghost nuking, etc. Why wasn't it bitched about then? Furthermore, it's not needed. Perhaps the definition of the word "need" is lost on the masses of idiots posting on the official forums about this. That's the only explanation for this QQfest.

Anyhow, this is a game that encourages cross-classing. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong mmo.

[Kaiyoko]

Er, think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

Was agreeing with you that you don't need sentinel, if your group doesn't have it you simply adapt your strategy.

Oh sorry took it the wrong way.

Wall of text

Second Wind saves lives.

[Vuitton]

Anyhow, this is a game that encourages cross-classing. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong mmo.

Currently, but not for much longer. As soon as jobs land the game no longer will encourage cross-classing for content designed for groups of players. I am looking forward to that so I can tell people like you to go fuck yourselves. :D

A group last night wanted me to have a LV42 CNJ and LV36 GLD for my LV50 THM to do Ifrit. Apparently stoneskin II is now mandatory for THMs to have (in addition to sentinel).

[Liminality]

Currently, but not for much longer. As soon as jobs land the game no longer will encourage cross-classing for content designed for groups of players. I am looking forward to that so I can tell people like you to go fuck yourselves. :D

A group last night wanted me to have a LV42 CNJ and LV36 GLD for my LV50 THM to do Ifrit. Apparently stoneskin II is now mandatory for THMs to have (in addition to sentinel).

You're telling me you leveled Black Mage in FFXI without /WHM OR /RDM (Stoneskin)? WOAH! NOW, HOLD THE FUCK ON.

[miokomioko]

Stop purposefully ignoring the lopsidedness of it. One single ability from one single class shouldn't be the most useful thing in the game regardless of what class you currently are on. People just fall into a strategy rut because getting their Gladiator power-leveled to 36+ and then just buckling down and eating Hellfire is easier on the brain thana group of players knowing to spread out and take out Ifrit's Nails when they spawn.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Currently, but not for much longer. As soon as jobs land the game no longer will encourage cross-classing for content designed for groups of players. I am looking forward to that so I can tell people like you to go fuck yourselves. :D

Too bad we can only play the current build of the game and not the future one right now.

A group last night wanted me to have a LV42 CNJ and LV36 GLD for my LV50 THM to do Ifrit. Apparently stoneskin II is now mandatory for THMs to have (in addition to sentinel).

Stoneskin II is the best support spell in the game. See? it's not just Sentinel.

Stop purposefully ignoring the lopsidedness of it. One single ability from one single class shouldn't be the most useful thing in the game regardless of what class you currently are on. People just fall into a strategy rut because getting their Gladiator power-leveled to 36+ and then just buckling down and eating Hellfire is easier on the brain thana group of players knowing to spread out and take out Ifrit's Nails when they spawn.

Just because I think the game encourages cross-classing doesn't mean I or anyone else is necessarily ignoring the lopsidedness of it whatsoever. I agree that a single ability should not be S-tier, however right now it is and it helps tremendously. We saw this with DD and we're seeing it again with Ifrit--people take the path of least resistance. Having Sentinel is easier on the brain, but it doesn't make us brainless as some would argue. It's a natural human tendency (hello remote for your television, GPS in your car, paying people to do your taxes, etc.).

People can QQ about it all they want, but it is not "needed" in any way and it certainly isn't difficult in the current environment to level up either. A LS mate took MRD from 42-50 in 3.5h while we farmed a single coffer in Zahar'ak. 8 levels in less than 4 hours and that's on the high-end of the levelling curve mind you. If they can't be arsed to level multiple classes in a game that not only promoted itself as customizable (which it is on the journey and isn't in the end game), then, as I said before, they are playing the wrong mmo.

[Elcura]

Apparently stoneskin II is now mandatory for THMs to have (in addition to sentinel).

That's because THM does so little else that you need to be doing something between debuffs to help. I had to get my CNJ for 42 because I realized how useful Stoneskin 2 would be for me to have. I don't know why people have to be pushed into being effective. You wouldn't play a job on XI without a properly leveled SJ right?

[solracht]

Anyhow, this is a game that encourages cross-classing. If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong mmo.

I believe there's a small difference between "encouraging cross-classing" and "encouraging having every class at level 40+".

Is it really good for the game if new players have to cap 2-3 classes before being allowed into the worthwhile content?

[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't think it encourages having every class to 40+. Even for DPS classes, which borrow abilities from several classes, the abilities mostly have two tiers. The first tier is pretty low and then the second is higher, sometimes much higher. The player chooses their level of involvement. If they want tier-II Second Wind, Ferocity, Bloodbath, or Raging Strike, then they go the extra mile of their own volition. To just get the base buff isn't much work at all.

I don't think there is any content that requires you to have 2-3 classes at cap to participate and win. Not even CNJ and THM need to both be at 50 to make either of those classes worthwhile, especially the former.