Ultra Street Fighter IV: AVOID PS4 RELEASE FOR NOW

[Chun Liroy]

Well there's many reason. Most of them begin with the fact that his attacks are always ambiguous, but even if you block the jump in, you're still at an extreme disadvantage. His biggest tool isn't his SPD, it's the fact that his DP covers so much ground. No one can backdash Seth's DP, so you can't do anything proactive (ie jump, backdash, tech, mash DP)when he has 2 bars, period. Now couple this with the fact that he has an SPD. The only way to get out of SPD setups is to back dash or jump or reversal DP, but if you do any of those while Seth DP's, you'll lose. This means that you're forced to block and predict when Seth will go for a DP or command grab. He's the only character in the game who can put the whole cast in legitimate 50/50 situations.

So even if you successfully guess the first 50/50 jump in, you literally have to guess again during his block string. He basically get's 2 mixups on every knockdown. The first comes when he jumps in, and the second comes when he starts his block string.

When Ibuki goes in with kunai, the only thing you're worrying about blocking is left/right, and if you block correctly, you guys are both neutral. This is why I don't think her vortex is on the same level as Akuma/Seth

I see... but wouldn't you say ibuki's left/right is a 50/50 on the entire cast? Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think Vega's kicks get out of the mixup, obviously not on wakeup, but during block strings. Yes it's punishable if the seth predicts it, but then it turns into a whole nother set of mind games. I get why it's so potent because of the 50/50 mixup, but I don't get why something safer (akuma's or ibukis) would not be considered better, I guess. With seth it turns into a guessing game that effects each person equally. Seth guesses right, he gets big damage, the other person guesses right, and seth loses half his life (again, only against the basic 50/50 spd/srk), where as you guess right with ibuki? Good for you, now here's some safe pressure in your face. The latter part is the part I'm not getting, I think.

[Weltall]

How do you not get it?

Vs Ibuki - You mixup defense is to block left or right on kunai. (Any character can neutral jump into grab, so I'm discounting that)

Vs. Seth - You have to block dive kick on either side, crossup MK, DP, and SPD. Guarding against DP and SPD is a puzzle you aren't going to win if they have meter. You cannot backdash on wakeup because his DP will get you. You can't just sit and block because SPD will get you. You can't wakeup with a DP because everything is safe. You can't wakeup with a normal because his divekick is strong as fuck. Tandem engine will also pull you in out of a backdash or focus attempt.

The only time I can ever beat good ones is with focus attacks off dumb wall jumps or if they just get too aggressive and I can make them whiff DP.

Seth is fuggin ridiculous.

[Chun Liroy]

How do you not get it?

Vs Ibuki - You mixup defense is to block left or right on kunai. (Any character can neutral jump into grab, so I'm discounting that)

Vs. Seth - You have to block dive kick on either side, crossup MK, DP, and SPD. Guarding against DP and SPD is a puzzle you aren't going to win if they have meter. You cannot backdash on wakeup because his DP will get you. You can't just sit and block because SPD will get you. You can't wakeup with a DP because everything is safe. You can't wakeup with a normal because his divekick is strong as fuck. Tandem engine will also pull you in out of a backdash or focus attempt.

The only time I can ever beat good ones is with focus attacks off dumb wall jumps or if they just get too aggressive and I can make them whiff DP.

Seth is fuggin ridiculous.

I still think Ibuki can go high/low on either side, no?

And yes, what you said about seth is right, but he can't do all of those things at once. So yeah, like Deejay said, it's 50/50 after 50/50, but divekick vs cross up HK is a lot less ambiguous than kunai stuff. Yes, DP and SPD is a true 50/50 and I said as much in my very first post about the subject, but both options are incredibly unsafe, and is an equal guessing game for each person playing (unless they have meter, I forgot about that, but even then it's technically unsafe at -3 in some situations). And Tanden engine is beat by jumps as well. A predicted jump in on a tanden is also disastrous. I agree, his mixups are insane, but given the high risk nature of them, I don't see why a char with safer options wouldn't be considered better (I mean their vortex).

[Weltall]

No, vs. Ibuki you either hold left or right to block kunai. You don't have to worry about high/low. Only time you have to block her high is vs. overhead kick.

[Deejay]

Don't forget, Seth can still empty jump command grab, safe jump, empty jump DP, or cross up. You're not only trying to block, you're trying to defend every single threat of an attack that street fighter has to offer. With Akuma, he nets the same results only his options are safer, yet still cover all of his opponents escape options. Although he gains less of an advantage even if he out guesses his opponent. That's why I think their Vortex are different yet equal. But I'd give the nod to Akuma because his is more well suited for tournament play.

[Chun Liroy]

No, vs. Ibuki you either hold left or right to block kunai. You don't have to worry about high/low. Only time you have to block her high is vs. overhead kick.

I see, I thought that she could follow up kunai with a high attack, and then do a low attack after landing. This makes it a lot different now.

Don't forget, Seth can still empty jump command grab, safe jump, empty jump DP, or cross up. You're not only trying to block, you're trying to defend every single threat of an attack that street fighter has to offer. With Akuma, he nets the same results only his options are safer, yet still cover all of his opponents escape options. Although he gains less of an advantage even if he out guesses his opponent. That's why I think their Vortex are different yet equal. But I'd give the nod to Akuma because his is more well suited for tournament play.

I see. Now I'm more inclined to agree with 1.a and 1.b. I'd like to play a good seth sometime. The only decent seth's I've played are on Adon, and I'm still learning how to play him. Still P'd one, but whatever. I'm really interested to how the Vega matchup plays against him. I'm pretty sure vega has one of the better matchups vs Seth in the game, since he deals massive damage on a single jump in guess, and backflip kicks should beat out DP/SPD options in block strings, to avoid being knocked down.

[Callisto]

The game doesn't actually have unblockables, so that can't happen. What unblockables truly are, are '1-frame blocks'. You can't hold left or right when you block them, but if you tap the opposite direction of where your opponent will land on the first frame that you get up, you'll block the attack.

Once people memorize unblockables, the people who get hit by them will just memorize how to block them, which will force you the attacker to switch it up, which means the metagame stays the same

proof:

Yes I knew this, but still even if you block it correctly, you're back into blockstring pressure, so I still think that type of oki is the endgame. It's basically going to be the game turning into Third Strike every time you get knocked down, lol.

[Chun Liroy]

Yes I knew this, but still even if you block it correctly, you're back into blockstring pressure, so I still think that type of oki is the endgame. It's basically going to be the game turning into Third Strike every time you get knocked down, lol.

Is it really possible to get consistent enough with blocking unblockables to deter the attacker from attempting them? I don't think so, especially like you said you get free pressure afterwards as well. 1f with a button is one thing, 1f with a stick is different, imo.

[Viq]

Is it really possible to get consistent enough with blocking unblockables to deter the attacker from attempting them? I don't think so, especially like you said you get free pressure afterwards as well. 1f with a button is one thing, 1f with a stick is different, imo.

It's really not much different. If you want proof, you can look to other games. For example, SC5 has moves that will change depending on the number of frames it takes you to input a qcf on the stick (4 frames iirc), and people nail those consistently. 1 frame timing on just tapping left or right is even more simple. It's really no different than hitting a button if you're at all competent at using a stick.

[Callisto]

Yeah, several games have single-frame blocking, in GG/BB that's a staple of the defensive system that players do all the time, people parried consistently in 3S, SC has single-frame blocks.

[Chun Liroy]

I see. Meh.

[Callisto]

The only real difference is that in those games you get an active benefit to doing so, punishing things that you can't normally punish. With AE 'unblockables' your only reward is not dying on that particular mixup, lol.

[goshtin]

I would barely call seth mixup anymore..
it's just shit has high priority, and can turn any attack into crazy high damage with 1 string, then if he get's a follow up combo because the opponent (me) guesses wrong, he wins.
Ibuki's vortex is so abusive and simple because it barely requires any kind of setting up.
Akuma's... so many people play akuma that everyone can see his vortex a mile off.. all you have to do is block any part of it, and he'll end up doing something unsafe...

[fantasticdan]

You mean the guy who said Adon was low tier? Yeah, I'll take actual tournament results over Jwong's year old opinion.

He said that in SSF4 beta, when jaguar kicks were punishable on block lol.

His biggest tool isn't his SPD, it's the fact that his DP covers so much ground. No one can backdash Seth's DP, so you can't do anything proactive (ie jump, backdash, tech, mash DP)when he has 2 bars, period. Now couple this with the fact that he has an SPD. The only way to get out of SPD setups is to back dash or jump or reversal DP, but if you do any of those while Seth DP's, you'll lose. This means that you're forced to block and predict when Seth will go for a DP or command grab. He's the only character in the game who can put the whole cast in legitimate 50/50 situations.

SPD vs DP is not a 50/50 against anyone with a teleport. Vega can even punish either option after KKK flip, and I believe bison/sim can do the same with teleport.

[Weltall]

Oh shit, someone with intelligence has popped...

[Scunsion]

yea lol I thought juri was gonna be broke cuz pinwheels were not punishable, wonder how that would have turned out.

[warc]

jwong playing ae pc right now on stream, ranked lobbies. trying to get in but no luck :/

[Weltall]

I just lose 700 PP on PC playing Random lolol....people talking shit

[Callisto]

I tried ranked for like ten minutes the other day and lost like 300, at least I won the one mirror match.

[Moridam]

i don't think i've touched ranked since i started playing again after getting my ps3 replaced, aside from one random night where i jumped on all wasted and blew pretty much all of my PP, haha.