Stats and how they work.

[Buttons]

Wow, did not expect that. Now I want the Garuda Lance. o.o" *added tests to OP*

[Grey Jorildyn]

Has the additional effect damage for primal weapons been considered when stating that GC weapons are good?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Actually, it's perfectly sensible design. Otherwise fast weapons would have been doomed to suck until the end of time. What I don't like is the stat cap thing. It makes gearing more complicated and unintuitive than it should be.

They are only doomed to suck until the end of time because of the terrible TP-based combat system which also includes timers on weapon skills. If you remove these aspects, and leave damage formulas to be based on weapon damage and not DPS, this problem does not occur. The lower delay weapons then weapon skill at a higher frequency for less damage and leaves it to the players to determine the best weapons based on gameplay and situation, rather than a single number on a weapon.

Basing WS on DPS rating is a quick fix cop-out patch for a broken system. It is not sensible in the slightest.

[Kaeko]

I could've sworn I saw a JP lodestone diary entry that talked about this, but for the love of me I can't seem to find it again.

But at the very least, I will say I can confirm this from a different source.

I'd love to see the source. The issue right now is if you have increased stat caps on say Garuda's weapon, it requires more gear to reach higher stat caps. You may be trading like ATK or ACC for it and not really getting that much extra benefit (or any benefit at all). So maybe someone else has done the work on what happens when you increase DPS on the weapon but do NOT stat cap.

Trying to wrap my head around this:

For AA stat caps are determined by DMG.
For WS stat caps are determined by DPS

For high DMG low DPS weapons you need more stats to cap AA damage but less to cap on WS.
For lower DMG higher DPS weapons you need less stats to cap AA but more to cap WS.

So you essentially when using low DMG/high DPS weapons you need to balance yourself so that you're not wasting too much gear overcapping stats for AA but need to maintain enough over the AA cap to get the most out of the higher caps for WSs?

Does that make sense?

This is a very good summary of the thought process. I think the next step in testing is determining how high the stat caps go for say Garuda weapons and the "penalty" for not capping. The good thing is that the prelim data set shows very strong linearity between both auto and base damage and WS and DPS, so should be easy to back calculate with some well designed tests. Regarding how this affects the average player... it's still too hard to tell at this point except for the fact that it may require a more thorough knowledge of the mechanics to really min-max your melee now due to the added layer of complexity added this patch.

[Niiro]

Hopefully by the time we figure it all out melees will be useful.

*fingers crossed*

[Frein]

They are only doomed to suck until the end of time because of the terrible TP-based combat system which also includes timers on weapon skills. If you remove these aspects, and leave damage formulas to be based on weapon damage and not DPS, this problem does not occur. The lower delay weapons then weapon skill at a higher frequency for less damage and leaves it to the players to determine the best weapons based on gameplay and situation, rather than a single number on a weapon.

Basing WS on DPS rating is a quick fix cop-out patch for a broken system. It is not sensible in the slightest.

You forget that there is an additional layer of controls: cooldowns. I'd argue that these limit you more often than TP does.

edit: I can't read. You are correct about the fact that removing the cooldowns would likely have sufficed to fix this imbalance, though I'm not convinced abilities wouldn't have to go through major revisions if they were only limited by TP.

[Grey Jorildyn]

They most certainly would. Can't just remove the cooldowns and the limiting reagent and think the system will work. It would need to be overhauled much further than that.

In any case, as long as they are rocking this system, we may never see balance in combat.

[tachikoma]

who wants to bet DPS is the only factor in WS stat caps?

My idea stems from the fact that ifrit bow is the only ifrit weapon that has lower stat caps shows around 330/300 vs the traditionial 350/310 the other mele weapons have. And ifrit bow has a 36.74 dps rating where the other sit around 39.7

[Niiro]

That's what Kaeko just established.

[tachikoma]

That's what Kaeko just established.

No kaeko linked a thread stating a higher DPS rating increases stat caps, I'm saying that DPS is the only factor in stat caps and that its a linear formula and we can take the current stat caps on ifrit bow and relate them to the stat caps on the other ifrit weapons to know EXACTLY how much stat caps are on every other weapon in the game. Including lower rank items.

>>>*I'm just saying this is my idea*<<<

Formula:
36.74 = 335/300
39.74 = 350/310
40.97 = 356/314

Could be as simple as => Raising dps by 1 point raises stat caps by +5(main)/+3(sub)

Archer would stand to receive the largest bonus from spine as the stat caps are very reachable at 335/300 and with very good gear can hit that 350+/310+ range. Also accuracy is not as big a factor as it is with LNC.

[Raldo]

For those interested in being crazy math junkies, the DPS listings for bows have been corrected on Mooglebox

(Thanks Jet!)

[Kaeko]

Couple JP blogs have bought on the the DPS relation to WS damage through separate testing. The biggest issues right now in my opinion:

(1) Establish the stat caps for the most common high end weapons; if possible establish a formula such as Tachi suggested.
(2) Establish the per-point gain in damage per +1 stat gain. How does this change as you increase DPS?
(3) Compare this per-point gain seen in (2) with the gain from ATK.

Based these results, assuming no complications, we can make a better assessment with regards to GC gear vs. Garuda vs. Ifrit. I suspect the only difficult choice for this will be ARC/BRD since Light Shot comprises over 40-50% of the total damage dealt for them. SE said they will be re-adjusting critical hits in some fashion in an effort to alter DRG, so may have to take that into account now as well later. Certainly getting more complex. Dare I say this is actually becoming an actual game now? Or still too soon?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Too soon.

[neptunet]

So I'm looking at this circlet from the Gridania GC that gives +50 crit potency if you're below 75% hp. I have to buy 1 more piece of gear. It's between that and the INT +3 belt. What do you guys think?

http://mooglebox.com/entries/serpent...;s-circlet.php
http://mooglebox.com/entries/serpent...#39;s-belt.php

[Aratharn]

Belt. Way better options for head.

[Raldo]

The crit potency isn't worth much, and it's worth even less when it's tied to an HP value, so your comparison is really whether a hat with INT+10 MP+70 is better than a waist with INT+3. The answer is almost certainly waist, but if you don't give any basis of what you already have that's getting replaced, then it's difficult to answer.

Also, that would probably be more appropriate in the random question thread.

[neptunet]

Naw, well the question is what good is +50 potency? The post in this thread about that has "image host" in place of all the graphs that are supposed to be there. So yeah MP+70 INT+10 crit potency +50 , or the INT belt. My headpiece has 20 INT and 6 m.acc. Yeah, lol I know it's a long shot but what if you took some AOE dmg with that circlet and went into active mode, and nuked down past convert and kept going til you needed to put your weapon away to regen mp. So 100% casting @ +50 crit potency. What's the significance of that? Can anyone say? Heheh.

[Raldo]

Not sure if you'll have the same issues with the images here (you probably will), but it's worth a shot:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/56489.html

Comparing +0 crit potency vs +50 crit potency on a level 50 monster, you would do approximately 7% more damage on a crit. This percentage gets progressively worse as you go up against higher level monsters (Lv55 monster would be approx +6% damage).

The fact that it's limited by HP% makes it nearly worthless imo, and it certainly isn't worth keeping your weapon out and not regen MP to retain such a bonus.

[neptunet]

Ah ok, thanks for the link.

[tachikoma]

i did not see kaeko's linked .doc

I notice the ws-dmg goes up for mog bow which shows to me that you are over the stat caps on ifrit(at least thats what I asume is going on, I just can't see the DPS value in the actual dmg formula outside of affecting stat caps).

The worst part is on the official forums ppl keep posting up garbage info like "I used beak on some ixali for testing and my ws's went down vs harpoon" but no data is shown and its all ballpark heresay >.>