FINAL FANTASY XI Roadmap for October 2011 – March 2012 (10/20/2011)

[Julian]

I don't give a shit about 14 because they should have never even bothered with it in the first place. It has always been a slap on all of our faces, but I don't really blame them, when you have all these people who so willingly jump into their new game even after all the crap from 11.

Again, I don't give a shit about their other games. I am paying for this game, and since I am paying a monthly fee, I expect my money to go into maintaining the game I am paying for. But yeah, I'm unhappy with the current state of things, so I cancelled my account this month until things turn around. (Good thing it's so easy to stop paying now!)

[arus2001]

I think people need to step back and understand why the game is operating on a smaller development team. SE has not said they are giving up on the game AT ALL. They are simply using as many of their resources to salvage 14 and 11 is an unfortunate side effect of the situation, since some much of their 11 talent is working on ff14.2. That is why this year's update theme was fixing/revamping old content. Old events made anew. Voidwatch was probaly conceived as a stopgap since the programming is already there (in abyssea). I am confident 11 will have more people working on it again, especially if the Vita rumor is true. The potential base that could develop from such a venture would bring even more capital and subs in.

I'm curious if there's a dire shortage of computer programmers in Japan, as the whole "Let's pour everything into XIV!" implies that either SE is unwilling to hire able bodies for XI or they don't exist. Once XIV starts charging monthly, it's also going to be more money in their pocket (and XIV itself finally generating its own income for its own production).

[Lordender]

I think people need to step back and understand why the game is operating on a smaller development team. SE has not said they are giving up on the game AT ALL. They are simply using as many of their resources to salvage 14 and 11 is an unfortunate side effect of the situation, since some much of their 11 talent is working on ff14.2. That is why this year's update theme was fixing/revamping old content. Old events made anew. Voidwatch was probaly conceived as a stopgap since the programming is already there (in abyssea). I am confident 11 will have more people working on it again, especially if the Vita rumor is true. The potential base that could develop from such a venture would bring even more capital and subs in.

You're way too optimistic, I can't see XI competing with XIV2.0 even if SE sticks to 75% of the stuff on the XIV roadmap. XIV will be so far superior that not even a VITA version of XI is going enough to bring in completely new players when XIV is going the modern route plus I think they're gonna market the hell out of XIV once they feel 2.0 is far enough along. I also believe that Yoshida is so far ahead of Tanaka but thats a different story.

[Toth]

I'm curious if there's a dire shortage of computer programmers in Japan, as the whole "Let's pour everything into XIV!" implies that either SE is unwilling to hire able bodies for XI or they don't exist. Once XIV starts charging monthly, it's also going to be more money in their pocket (and XIV itself finally generating its own income for its own production).

They are probably trying to use available resources to prevent FFXIV from loosing even more money to fix.

[Kaisha]

They are probably trying to use available resources to prevent FFXIV from loosing even more money to fix.

I'm somewhat expecting XIV to continue hogging extra resources until it's at least two expansion packs in.

[Septimus]

I'm somewhat expecting XIV to continue hogging extra resources until it's at least two expansion packs in.

Or until they start making Final Fantasy XIII: Online.

[NynJa]

You're way too optimistic, I can't see XI competing with XIV2.0 even if SE sticks to 75% of the stuff on the XIV roadmap.

Wasnt that the word going around 2 yrs ago?

[Kaisha]

Or until they start making Final Fantasy XIII: Online.

And it'd still come out before XIII VS.

[Kohan]

Why exempt a new game, though?

For the reasons already mentioned.

The intent was to compare FFXI's average updating schedule to that of other established MMOs, and to thereby determine whether Square Enix is actually updating at an industry standard pace or not. All MMOs, when brand new, receive tons of updates. It skews the results when you're looking for a standard, or an average.

To further explain, if you cut every MMO down to its first six to twelve months of existence, you would see little to no difference between "Rift," "World of Warcraft," "Final Fantasy XI," and so on. Now, since the latter two are established, "Rift" seems to be updating more often—but when their entire lifespans are taken into account, the comparison is no longer fair.

[Plow]

Yeah, it's not exactly fair to compare XI to new games in their first year or so in terms of update quantity, pretty much every mmo that's ever come out has had a dramatically higher update rate in the first year or 2 than after.

It should be 20x (30x) in size compared to XI's if we count by the money they're pulling in. But no, it isn't, because they put in exactly as much effort as they need to.

If we want to 'face it', XI is even older and smaller by a gigantic fucking margin. Rift just came out and they want to tap that target demographic while they're still relevant. I do wonder whether they've managed to keep their playerbase or if they will be forced to F2P the shit out of that game soon.

Last I saw FFXI was at like 300k actual players, and WoW was around 10m, so yeah you're quite right in that they're being paid 30+ times as much. They're also running a WHOLE lot more servers and a much more in depth system what with instanced dungeons, battlegrounds and arenas constantly, etc.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect easily 10x as much from WoW's updates as FFXI if they're on the same schedule.

It's kind of not fair to compare WoW to anything in these kind of terms though, as the quantity they're working with is just such an entirely different league.

[Hyan]

you could subscribe to Hyan's bullcrap philosophy of how a MMO should only function off as a little as possible with money it makes not going back into it out of priority

Or you could BLAME TANEYKA the director that never was!

All I want to know is how do these corporations justify spending more money than is necessary on a service they are providing. Whatever the result is it has to pay off in some form or another. Otherwise it's a waste of assets. This isn't a philosophy, this is reality.

On the other hand, you by default are incredibly biased as you would directly benefit from the company throwing more money at this game, basically making this a crusade to cater to your own selfish needs, nothing more. Also comparisons to games like WoW and Rift that exist in a whole another league altogether. I would go as far as to say you have no credibility when it comes to claiming what SE's bottom line should be.

Lastly, and this is a bit off-topic, the fact that the mere thought of making FFXI 2.0 isn't shot down, raped and thrown off a cliff as the worst use of SE's time is what makes this place retarded.

[Septimus]

Or you could BLAME TANEYKA the director that never was!

All I want to know is how do these corporations justify spending more money than is necessary on a service they are providing. Whatever the result is it has to pay off in some form or another. Otherwise it's a waste of assets. This isn't a philosophy, this is reality.

On the other hand, you by default are incredibly biased as you would directly benefit from the company throwing more money at this game, basically making this a crusade to cater to your own selfish needs, nothing more. Also comparisons to games like WoW and Rift that exist in a whole another league altogether. I would go as far as to say you have no credibility when it comes to claiming what SE's bottom line should be.

Because you are in no way biased either. I am not someone who believes that the customer is always right, but if you think that it is selfish for people to expect to get their money's worth out of something for which they pay, then it is just as selfish for a company to maximize its profits by using its customers as a cash cow. Just like an investment has to pay off for the company, it also has to pay off for the people who are paying that company. Otherwise people will stop giving them money.

I asked you this question before, but you never responded, are you still playing FFXI? If you are, then it is great that you can pay them and hold this opinion, if you aren't you are a hypocrite for expecting people to put up with something that you would not.

[Hyan]

Because you are in no way biased either. I am not someone who believes that the customer is always right, but if you think that it is selfish for people to expect to get their money's worth out of something for which they pay, then it is just as selfish for a company to maximize its profits by using its customers as a cash cow.

Of course corporations are selfish. That's the reality I was talking about. That is how the business world works. You can bitch about it all you want, if investing in something doesn't pay off in some form no company that wants to be successful will do it. It would be a death sentence otherwise.

if you aren't you are a hypocrite for expecting people to put up with something that you would not.

That is silly. I don't expect people to put up with something that I do not. I expect the opposite, because that's what makes the corporation act. If people aren't getting their money's worth, and leave, that forces the corporation to either work harder to keep said customers or allocate resources elsewhere, as it is not worth it to try to keep these customers. As it is pretty obvious that all customers aren't equal.

But if none of this happens, then people are getting their money's worth, or that's the mindset I have because why would you pay for the service otherwise? It would be completely irrational.

If SE is "not doing enough", as many seem to claim, then we will see the results sooner or later and the company in question has to act on it. Everything else is completely irrelevant. If nothing happens then they are doing enough for the customers that keep paying them regardless.

This game has had a rather stable population for all it's lifetime. Somehow thinking that suddenly things would be different is far-fetched. Maybe it will start shrinking again, maybe not. Now, though, it's just the usual doom mongering, nothing more.

I don't play this game, although I wouldn't exactly regret doing so to experience the accumulated content over the years. Do you play? Why, if you don't get your money's worth? If not, who are you to say what is "worth" someone else's while? It's an agreement between the customer and the company, and if 300k people are still okay with how things are then there's absolutely no problem.

[Septimus]

Of course corporations are selfish. That's the reality I was talking about. That is how the business world works. You can bitch about it all you want, if investing in something doesn't pay off in some form no company that wants to be successful will do it. It would be a death sentence otherwise.

You can successfully find a balance between "rip everyone off" and "give away the store". If something isn't going to pay off it would be foolish for a company to do it, but on the other hand if they are killing something profitable through neglect it is just as foolish. If you have a loyal group of people who line up to hand you money, it is a bad strategy to alienate those people. This is what Square is doing with FFXI.

That is silly. I don't expect people to put up with something that I do not. I expect the opposite, because that's what makes the corporation act. If people aren't getting their money's worth, and leave, that forces the corporation to either work harder to keep said customers or allocate resources elsewhere, as it is not worth it to try to keep these customers. As it is pretty obvious that all customers aren't equal.

But if none of this happens, then people are getting their money's worth, or that's the mindset I have because why would you pay for the service otherwise? It would be completely irrational.

If SE is "not doing enough", as many seem to claim, then we will see the results sooner or later and the company in question has to act on it. Everything else is completely irrelevant. If nothing happens then they are doing enough for the customers that keep paying them regardless.

This game has had a rather stable population for all it's lifetime. Somehow thinking that suddenly things would be different is far-fetched. Maybe it will start shrinking again, maybe not. Now, though, it's just the usual doom mongering, nothing more.

I don't play this game, although I wouldn't exactly regret doing so to experience the accumulated content over the years. Do you play? Why, if you don't get your money's worth? If not, who are you to say what is "worth" someone else's while? It's an agreement between the customer and the company, and if 300k people are still okay with how things are then there's absolutely no problem.

And people have been voting with their feet, but instead of saying "we better do something to help stem these losses" they are instead saying "well less people are playing so let's devote less resources to them". It is a vicious cycle, even since WotG was released it was apparent that they were devoting less and less to the development of this game (hello bevy of recycled zones) and the player base has shrunk as a result. The last time they released the size of the player base it was last year right after Abyssea was released and the level cap raised at about 300,000, there is no way that many people are playing now- we are down to 15 servers now there is no way each one has ~20,000 people on it. Why has the population shrunk? Because they are starving the game to death and people are leaving because they feel that there is little hope for the game's future.

Yes I still play, and it is mostly because of my linkshell. (You may have heard of it, it is called "BG".) I can find things to do, but I am also not nearly has hard-core as I was years ago. Do I feel that I am getting the same bang for my buck as I did 5 years ago? No, not even close. But I am still very attached to my friends and to the incredible world that is Vana'diel; and keep hoping that maybe they will realize that there is no law against a company having two reasonably successful MMOs.

[Hyan]

And people have been voting with their feet, but instead of saying "we better do something to help stem these losses" they are instead saying "well less people are playing so let's devote less resources to them".

Of course.

If you play one game for 8 years, it is not unreasonable to expect that you would grow more and more tired of it, even regardless of the effort the company puts into it (up to a certain point). That means that over time, it takes more and more effort from the developers side to keep the customer.

Do you know what happened to the playerbase between start of ToAU and start of WoTG? Do we have any data to go on? If it kept shrinking even back then, and WoTG dev cycle didn't reverse that trend in any significant way, then they simply made better use of less resources in the end. What would have happened if they had put even more effort into development than they did back then? Would it have been worth it to reverse the trend? Twice the current resources to keep the playerbase in the upper 400k's for a while longer, half the current resources while slowly shrinking to 300k's over the years?

These are just examples though. The point is, that this is a common trend in the industry. If it were just Square-Enix that did it, that could be poor management. If everyone does it, perhaps it is you that are missing something. Every variable above could affect the decision, and even then I'm not a genius that can think up everything that may have led to it. To say that they devoted less resources yet didn't prepare for the inevitable shrinking of the playerbase, though, is far-fetched. I'd say, instead, that more variables are at play than you realize, of which I only provided few possible examples. That's how it usually goes.

Even WoW is shrinking today, and they are (supposedly) spending the same resources as they were before. That would support my earlier claim. It's in a much higher scale, of course, but suddenly to keep the playerbase stable they would have to spend more than they currently spend and have spent for the last years. Is that what they're going to do? Although it would be only a short-term solution. Soon they would have to spend even more than that. Would it even work out?

It's a vicious cycle, and reversing it may take more effort than is deemed worthwhile.

[Plow]

Yes I still play, and it is mostly because of my linkshell. (You may have heard of it, it is called "BG".) I can find things to do, but I am also not nearly has hard-core as I was years ago. Do I feel that I am getting the same bang for my buck as I did 5 years ago? No, not even close. But I am still very attached to my friends and to the incredible world that is Vana'diel; and keep hoping that maybe they will realize that there is no law against a company having two reasonably successful MMOs.

Do you really, honestly somehow believe that you're getting less quality entertainment, either qualitatively or quantitatively, for your money in FFXI than you did in 2006?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the quality of CoP's story as much as anybody. The reality is, though, the game is so, so, so much better now than it was then that I can hardly believe I actually stuck with it through that shit.

[Hyan]

It's too bad, though, that their resources are seemingly spent on things that do not directly affect the player in the short-term at least.

What has happened outside the game is something nobody would have thought possible back in 2006. Official forums, test server, new development environment. What was up with that player survey few months ago asking which platform do people play on?

The XIV team showed only the top of the iceberg for 10 months while working on 2.0. Not to say that XI team is doing anything of the sort, but all this talk about Vita, surveys and turbulence in development in general could make anyone suspicious.

Maybe the playerbase didn't want a test server at all, if it meant less content in-game? Or perhaps they thought that they could have the cake and eat it too. Just as much content as before, plus the test server.

Either way, its risky if they're attempting something of the sort. For XIV it didn't matter, but XI has a large, stable playerbase.

Not that it's more than fluff, but it's important nonetheless if you want to be seen as 'modern'. People will bitch just the same.

[fantasticdan]

Maybe the playerbase didn't want a test server at all, if it meant less content in-game? Or perhaps they thought that they could have the cake and eat it too. Just as much content as before, plus the test server.

What the fuck?

[Hyan]

If they use their budget for creating something like a test server, that money certainly isn't going into producing more in-game content. "What the fuck" all you want.

[fantasticdan]

There already was a test server, players just couldn't log-in to it... well except for when taj figured out how. And allowing players to test their shit saves them the effort/manpower of having to do any kind of rigorous testing themselves.