Once Upon a Time (warning, spoilers inside)

[Tidane]

During season one I was all "Evil Queen is Evil, DIE!" now it's "Misunderstood Queen has my feels, DIE Team Charming", never liked Henry but Snow was alright in the first season I suppose.

I've seen this sentiment expressed several times, but it really confuses me. How is Regina at all misunderstood? There may be no indication that the majority of the "good guys" don't know Regina's past, but even without them knowing, I can't say she's that misunderstood. They may not understand why she is the way she is, but she constantly makes poor decisions for stupid reasons and ends up being...well, evil. She's had more than one chance to look at the situation rationally and Do The Right Thing™, but each time she avoids the right (and in some scenarios, easier) choice. I understand why the writers have written it this way, but I absolutely hate when they use a lack of logic as a crutch in place of good plot and writing.

That's certainly not to say that any other characters are any better. They've done a good job giving Regina a reasonable backstory that shows the audience she could've been a likable person, but a series of situations made her the person she is. The "true hero" would've risen above it while the "true villain" would've been evil without it (but no one on this show qualifies for those roles). They've tried to make the show more realistic than the typical Disney version of the fairy tales, but not quite as dark as they originally were. The writing of the characters is...mostly atrocious.

Henry is a child (which is already enough to be annoying enough), so I can partially forgive his naïveté. I can't seem to recall how old he is supposed to be, but given that he spends all his time around adults, you'd think that he would've realized that the world isn't black and white. Cora (and Regina) have killed people for fun or to cause pain to someone else. They write him as the voice of good, resolved not to let anything bad happen to anyone (unless they're one of the "good guys", which case any wrongdoing by the bad party can be forgiven).

Snow (needs to let her hair grow) is probably the closest they got to being a real person, but something about her (either the acting or the writing) really bothers me. She is written like (I believe) most people think: someone is doing bad and everything we've done to stop them has just ended up causing more collateral damage. The person doing the evil deeds need to be gotten rid of. The took the classic good character and wrote the conclusion to the arc in the most painful way for Snow. Not only did they have Snow make the decision to end Cora's life, but they also made Snow manipulate Cora's own daughter to be the one who killed her and showed us that, had the curse not been a factor, giving Cora her heart back may have solved everything (except keeping Rumpelstiltskin alive). Had the beacon of good stayed pure for just a little longer, everything may have ended. Twist the knife a little more, writers. So, she feels terrible about taking a life, even though everyone with a little knowledge of baddies would've thought that was the best possible action.

Charming is...cardboard. I'm not sure if they forgot that he was a person who could do things, but they seem to use him as a vehicle to move other people's stories, without progressing him. He stands idle, ready to come to Snow's rescue (either physical or emotional), but he's had no growth and he seems to lack any decent characterization. The way he acts (and, to a lesser extent, everyone in the town) seems to change wildly depending on what role they need him to fill in the plot. I think there are quite a few directions they could've taken him, but it seems as though they're content to leave him as is.

Emma often feels the same way to me. They build tension between her and her family, but she doesn't really do much of anything. I feel like the fact that she grew up outside all of this nonsense would give per a perspective similar to ours, but she still seems like much more of a puppet than I think she should, at this point.

Which, really, is another fairly big issue with the plot. The magic is, essentially, all evil. They made a point of telling us that magic (except fairy magic!) comes with a price. Everyone we'd seen that had magic (prior to Emma) was obviously a villain. The magic makes the villains seems even more moronic. The classic "let the good guys live so we can torture them" is a trope I really do hate. Using Henry as Regina's "reason not to kill" is almost as annoying. You're telling me she can't secretly have a tree drop on someone's head? Yeah, it wouldn't make good television, but giving your characters nearly unlimited power and then having them bake pies isn't really good TV, either.

But they gave Emma some sort of magic (born by true love, blah blah), so they must have a plan for her, right? There's one of two ways they'll go with it: either Emma uses her magic for good, showing that it isn't the magic that makes bad things happen, or the magic will corrupt her (you have to believe that they wouldn't give her magic for some drama and then not explore it). If she had any sort of decent characterization or backbone, I'd go with the latter. I'd have her start to learn and use magic to fight Regina. I'd have her power grow exponentially, surpassing everyone. Turn her into the big bad and have Regina and Rumpelstiltskin have to team up with the rest of crew good to stop her.

I actually dont' really understand their reasoning. Somehow it's ok for Snow to become evil but not ok to have Regina become good? I mean there are so many fairy tale villains that they could use to replace Regina. I absolutely love the show, but they are kinda turning this into a Superman vs. Lex Luther thing, and ya making people love Lex Luther more than the good guys is gonna get old.

I wouldn't say they have a problem with Regina being good, but the fact that Regina becoming good means they need to introduce a villain and miss out on the drama and general misery they get to show Snow in over murdering one of the heartless. As for Snow, as I mentioned above, I think it was a fairly good logical step in the story to take (one that I really would've expected from Charming, given his history, but I suppose that's why they made it Snow). It isn't something they can just take back (until Cora comes back to life because magic), so they'll have to have Snow deal with it or leave her a useless sack of suicidal moping, which I don't think they'll do (for long).

[arus2001]

Despite the... maturity of things at time, there's a part of me that thinks this show also strives to be watchable to kids, too. So that's why you get stuff like Henry being so pivotal and probably some quirky plot choices here and there kids wouldn't give second thought to, with probably a leaning more toward girls than boys (thus Charming not being as consistent or fleshed out while a lot of the cast is women).

Anyway, I'd completely forgotten about Jafar or the little villain campout. Could technically tap into Ursula, I think, but I'd rather not a fat squid lady villain. x.x

[Necronus]

Anyway, I'd completely forgotten about Jafar or the little villain campout. Could technically tap into Ursula, I think, but I'd rather not a fat squid lady villain. x.x

I'm betting on Jafar at some point, but Ursula is not out of the question. I totally expected Ariel to be worked into the plot when Rumple mentioned that only a mermaid could get to the special ink he used.

I think it'd be funny if they threw in Hades as well.

If played by James Woods again, I'm sold.

[Damane]

@Tidane: i think the reason why me and other sympatyse with Regina is just that her reactions are human. She didnt decide to be evil, nor is she evil at all. She was more like pushed into being evil, because of the action the "good" ones do.

[tisiphone]

A couple of episodes ago, Regina said this to Snow:
"Have you ever considered that maybe perhaps I am good? I was always the Queen, It was you who added the "Evil" to my name."

And I kinda noticed that everyone else (in season 1 at least, in Fairy Tale Land) just called her the Queen, and it was only Snow that really called her the 'Evil Queen.'

[Damane]

A couple of episodes ago, Regina said this to Snow:
"Have you ever considered that maybe perhaps I am good?,I was always the Queen, It was you who added the "Evil" to my name."

And I kinda noticed that everyone else (in season 1 at least, in Fairy Tale Land) just called her the Queen, and it was only Snow that really called her the 'Evil Queen.'

never noticed that until you said so now.

I mean honestly Reginas reactions all mostly snows/coras fault:
Her big loves death is the fault of Cora and Snow. Cora for killing him and Snow for telling Cora about daniel. This pushed her to take revenge on Cora (by sending her to Wonderland) and Snow (by useing the curse, because she failed to take revenge on her before all the time).
Her reason to team up with cora was: being pushed away from Emma, Snow etc. even though she was innocent and actually helped them come alive back from the fairytale land. The fear of looseing loved people AGAIN was just to big for her, so she teamed up with cora since there was never hope that the others would ever see her as a good person. I mean seriously how would you react if all of the sudden the biological mother shows up and demands her son back which she gave up for adoption?
Her reason to now take revenge AGAIN on snow: the death of her mother Cora.
Her reason to keep Belle in check: to have something in her hand if mr. gold/rumpel ever decided to move against her or henry, since he cant be trusted.

The only person that really was evil was Cora: obsessed with getting more power and enslaving everyone else (tough she claims that everything she did was for her daughter).

[NotGreyheim]

never noticed that until you said so now.

I mean honestly Reginas reactions all mostly snows/coras fault:
Her big loves death is the fault of Cora and Snow. Cora for killing him and Snow for telling Cora about daniel. This pushed her to take revenge on Cora (by sending her to Wonderland) and Snow (by useing the curse, because she failed to take revenge on her before all the time).
Her reason to team up with cora was: being pushed away from Emma, Snow etc. even though she was innocent and actually helped them come alive back from the fairytale land. The fear of looseing loved people AGAIN was just to big for her, so she teamed up with cora since there was never hope that the others would ever see her as a good person. I mean seriously how would you react if all of the sudden the biological mother shows up and demands her son back which she gave up for adoption?
Her reason to now take revenge AGAIN on snow: the death of her mother Cora.
Her reason to keep Belle in check: to have something in her hand if mr. gold/rumpel ever decided to move against her or henry, since he cant be trusted.

The only person that really was evil was Cora: obsessed with getting more power and enslaving everyone else (tough she claims that everything she did was for her daughter).

Personal accountability, what a silly notion!

[Tidane]

@Tidane: i think the reason why me and other sympatyse with Regina is just that her reactions are human. She didnt decide to be evil, nor is she evil at all. She was more like pushed into being evil, because of the action the "good" ones do.

never noticed that until you said so now.

I mean honestly Reginas reactions all mostly snows/coras fault:
Her big loves death is the fault of Cora and Snow. Cora for killing him and Snow for telling Cora about daniel. This pushed her to take revenge on Cora (by sending her to Wonderland) and Snow (by useing the curse, because she failed to take revenge on her before all the time).
Her reason to team up with cora was: being pushed away from Emma, Snow etc. even though she was innocent and actually helped them come alive back from the fairytale land. The fear of looseing loved people AGAIN was just to big for her, so she teamed up with cora since there was never hope that the others would ever see her as a good person. I mean seriously how would you react if all of the sudden the biological mother shows up and demands her son back which she gave up for adoption?
Her reason to now take revenge AGAIN on snow: the death of her mother Cora.
Her reason to keep Belle in check: to have something in her hand if mr. gold/rumpel ever decided to move against her or henry, since he cant be trusted.

The only person that really was evil was Cora: obsessed with getting more power and enslaving everyone else (tough she claims that everything she did was for her daughter).

As much as I wish you could, you can't really blame a child for acting like a child. You can certainly try to teach them, but it isn't like Snow was being malicious. She was a child that was tricked by an adult. Why would you place any (lasting) blame on the child? Be angry at your mother (which, apparently, she could forgive) and not the child (who, for some reason, she cannot forgive). Any way I see it, Regina seeking revenge or vengeance towards Snow was silly, until Snow caused her to kill her mother. I can see her being angry that Snow tricked her into killing her own mother, but it isn't like Cora shouldn't have been hated by Regina or that Cora hadn't done more than enough to Snow for the death to be warranted.

Are we expected to believe that Regina has a problem with everyone in the town believing she killed someone, especially when there was a witness (lewl)? At that point in time, no one knew that Cora was around. As soon as they realized she was, they stopped blaming Regina. I have a problem believing that Regina is so easily convinced by her mother, the person that killed the love of her life and framed her for the fake-murder of someone, to join her. There's always been hope that the others would see her as good, but Regina doesn't make a visible effort. At the slightest provocation, she's back on the warpath. You can't expect people to change their opinion of you in days, especially when you spent years tormenting them prior to casting them into a strange world, removing their memory, and trapping them in essentially a stasis for 28 years.

Emma didn't just "show up" and start demanding her son. She came to the town because her son ran away, then watched what was happening in the town. She didn't do any demanding until Regina showed her true colors (actually harming Henry at one point, if you recall). And really, it was Henry that forced the decision, not Emma. As far as I can tell, Emma would've been perfectly willing to keep to the arrangement, if Regina didn't keep going all psyco-witch lady.

As I mentioned above, her new revenge on Snow reason makes more sense, but not by a lot. Be angry that Snow tricked you into killing your own mother, but please please please realize that not only did your mother kill Snow's mother, but she killed the love of your life. The fact that her anger towards Snow someone trumped her anger towards her mother is truly baffling to me.

I understand locking Belle up as a way to keep Rumpelstiltskin under control (even if she didn't know that he would have his memory). Just because she has a reason to lock her up doesn't mean she should be forgiven for doing so.

It just seems so strange to me that Regina is incapable of understanding why everyone in the town feels about her as they do. It isn't exactly a secret. I think the only person Regina has the right to hate as much as the town should hate her is her mother. With her out of the picture, she could have taken a step back and realized that, once again, her mother had been manipulating her. As long as their goals were aligned, Regina would be ok, but as soon as Cora wanted something that she didn't, anything Regina still loved would be at risk.

I'll give you Cora, though. It certainly seems that the removal of her heart, her lust for power, and her desire for revenge makes her one of the most evil characters we've seen.

[Damane]

I have one thing I dont understand. If the town was invisible to outside people and was nowhere on the map, how was Regina then able to adopt Henry? I mean she couldnt leave the town and noone knew about the town at all.

[tisiphone]

I have one thing I dont understand. If the town was invisible to outside people and was nowhere on the map, how was Regina then able to adopt Henry? I mean she couldnt leave the town and noone knew about the town at all.

Didn't Mr Gold arrange the adoption anyway, but even then that doesn't really explain it.
In that case, what was Mr Gold going to actually do with Ashley's child, since she was going to give him it before Emma made a deal with him.

[hey]

I have one thing I dont understand. If the town was invisible to outside people and was nowhere on the map, how was Regina then able to adopt Henry? I mean she couldnt leave the town and noone knew about the town at all.

Are we really sure she couldn't leave?

[Hatedregret]

Gold never lost his memory either but is still cursed and forced to use magic to get out.

[Damane]

Regina should have been able to leave, she was never cursed. Cora even made mention of it, and we clearly saw that Hook was under no restriction to stay within the bounds of Storybrooke once he arrived there.

Regina was hit by the curse, how else would she wake up in storybrook then. The only difference is that she kept her memory. I highly doubt she could leave town. Hook and Cora indeed never got hit by the curse and came to storybrook by hooks ship. So how did Regina adopt henry. Maybe pinochio has his hands in this. He is the only person outside of storybrook that knew about storybrook, emma and her child.

[arus2001]

I would assume they weren't cursed because they came via the boat/bean portal.

[Takiwaki]

A freaking taser? really?

[AzazaelFenrir]

Interesting episode. Again I love the fact that they don't introduce characters for no reason.

Who was the dragon supposed to be? Mushu?

As for the adoption question, I am sure that it was arranged and Regina never left the town. 'Hi I am the mayor of some podunk town and want to adapt a boy, blah blah blah'. Based on the way she felt the barrier two weeks ago, I am guessing she couldn't leave.

[Damane]

this whole episode is all kinds of wtf. how when why do they know each other, and wtf is her (the fiances) motive? I am fucking confused!

[arus2001]

All I can guess is she wants to know/learn magic. My gripe is the coincidences of involvement between her, Owen, Bael, and Pinnochio is a bit TOO convenient.

[Dotsudoku]

All I can guess is she wants to know/learn magic. My gripe is the coincidences of involvement between her, Owen, Bael, and Pinnochio is a bit TOO convenient.

Her involvement with Owen doesn't seem terribly far fetched; he probably made a lot of noise at one point about a place that magically disappeared, which drew her attention

As for Bael and Pinnochio, well her and Pinno were both headed to the guy who had street cred for being legitimately magical, so while the timing is coincidental, I wouldn't say it's too much of a reach. Bael was entirely orchestrated based on her knowledge of Pinno's connection to magic

[Iono]

Was hoping the dragon would be either Eddie Murphy or Ken Jeong.

WTH Tazer VS dragon and wooden man...? -.-a