Random Mists of Pandaria Discussion

[solracht]

3 of those are PC races. I don't see how it's crazy to bundle them together, and the entire expansion is not focused on Pandas (that's just the argument being used by people who want to complain). It is taking place largely on their continent. There may even be some random quest to save a bamboo forest, but I highly doubt that the raid instance is going to be saving a bamboo forest so the pandas can eat it.

Considering one dungeon is about saving the Panda brewery so the pandas can keep on getting drunk... I wouldn't be so sure!

Personally I stopped caring about the story/lore/feel of this game around the time they scrapped Azjol Nerub and forced Yogg'Saron into Ulduar, so I don't really mind Pandaria... but I have to side with Kaylia on his last post.

I don't think the argument is whether Pandaren are dumb/silly or not (as the picture you posted shows, we have a lot of animal races), the argument is whether an entire expansion based around Pandaren is out of place/dumb or not. Had pandas been added during the Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King, nobody would've complained.

People can't really know what the expansion is about at this stage, and I'm sure all the general public has seen is the trailer. A trailer that was focused on pandas. A trailer that says, and I quote: "and the people that might well change the fate of us all" before a pandaren jumps on screen.

If Blizzard wanted people to believe the expansion was focused on the war between the alliance and horde, they could've done a much better job with the trailer and the website. The only way you'd even know this is if you listened to the QAs in Blizzcon.

I might not side with the complaints, but given the material we've been shown... I think they're completely understandable.

[FailureMidgard]

Considering one dungeon is about saving the Panda brewery so the pandas can keep on getting drunk... I wouldn't be so sure!

Personally I stopped caring about the story/lore of this game around the time they scrapped Azjol Nerub and forced Yogg'Saron into Ulduar, so I don't really mind Pandaria... but I have to side with Kaylia on his last post.

I don't think the argument is whether Pandaren are dumb/silly or not (as the picture you posted shows, we have a lot of animal races), the argument is whether an entire expansion based around Pandaren is out of place/dumb or not.

People can't really know what the expansion is about at this stage, and I'm sure all the general public has seen is the trailer. A trailer that was focused on pandas.

If Blizzard wanted people to believe the expansion was focused on the war between the alliance and horde, they could've done a much better job with the trailer. The only way you'd even know this is if you listened to the QAs later.

I guess if all you watched is the short trailer...fine? But that's a pretty silly thing to base opinion on. Zandalari are specifically mentioned as a threat, we know there's some increased horde vs alliance tension, as well as several mentions of some sort of "ancient enemy" in addition to some sort of mantid/silithid/qiraji threat.

There's more going on than "Pandas everywhere!" but sure, their race is a central part of the expansion. "Space Goats" were a central part of TBC. Also, I'm really confused by the lore people that are upset over something that isn't "omg save the world from imminent destruction...again". Am I the only one that thinks that storyline/idea was overplayed well, before WoW was released? And in WoW, how many times are we really going to save the world/civilization before it gets old. I think a faction vs faction storyline is a breath of fresh air really...I'm not a big pvp fan, but if they can properly incorporate the faction vs faction stuff into PvE raids, I think it's a great break from the super powerful evil that just wants to destroy everything. Let's have a raid where we well, go raid some ancient Panda temple with the goal of getting some powerful weapon to use against the opposing faction, can have a new "faction champs" encounter somewhere inside the raid where we meet the opposing faction's team, but really, what's wrong with an overall goal of nuking Stormwind/Orgrimmar instead of fighting EvilDude#10 or whatever we're on.

[solracht]

I feel like you greatly overestimate the general WoW population if you believe most people saw anything beyond the website/trailer, especially if they didn't like these.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all of the other expansions were pretty clear from the start about what they were about when they were announced. For Pandaria, you have to dig a little more. At first glance, I do think the expansion says "Pandas everywhere!" (even if you and I know better). I had been following Blizzcon somewhat closely, and I missed the information about the Zandalari, for example.

So like I said on my last post, I don't side with the complaints, but I don't think this expansion had a good presentation compared to the others.

[aurik]

I don't understand this. Some tiers are lackluster maybe, but overall the tree doesn't look that bad to me?
15 tier is nothing special, but runspeed isn't bad for anyone, others seem like pvp talents, maybe some limited pve use to displacer beast if you can safely take a random teleport to remove DoTs on an encounter (would be interesting in FL if it removed Shannox's bleed or something).
30 tier seems all around solid, Desperate Prayer and NS are both fine.
45 tier is a letdown, but Typhoon isn't a bad option to have for any spec, has been quite useful in Cata so far.
60 tier looks good all around to me with potentially difficult choices (though doubtfully situational).
75 tier is another letdown, but Ursol's Vortex seems like it will be a pve staple to help with AoE. Demo Roar could have it's uses too, but seems unlikely.
90 tier is almost bad with the first 2 talents, kinda WTF at them wanting druids to actually be hybrids in combat (it won't work as well as they want it to). Heart of the Wild could still be good for Feral Tranqs, or Boomkins to use pre-combat to start in an eclipse or w/e. Regardless, disentanglement seems like a pretty good option for almost anyone, instant cast (while moving) self heal every 30 seconds has to have uses. Presumably it will let you shift Boomkin>Boomkin or Cat>cat like you can do Travel>Travel now to clear snares, and get this benefit, so it's just 1 GCD for a 20% heal. Not amazing, but it's not just a pvp talent, and again, can be done while moving.

Overall, I don't think the tree is that terrible though. What am I missing?

Well you just put it yourself.

For a raiding healer:
T1: only that one talent is worth thinking about
T2: desp prayer is obsolete due to t6 only having 1 talent worth taking which is the same
T3: nothing useful
T4: Unless the other abilities are super OP, tree of life will be the required choice here.
T5: as you said, another letdown. Vortex vs Demo roar might be interesting for fights with adds, but for the majority of stuff this tier is just useless.
T6: Only Desp. Prayer is worth taking
T6: only one talent is worth thinking about

It's not that there is nothing good, there are talents that look cool, but when you think about it, there is no choice. It's a natural consequence of having a single tree for 4 separate specs.

[FailureMidgard]

Well you just put it yourself.

For a raiding healer:
T1: only that one talent is worth thinking about
T2: desp prayer is obsolete due to t6 only having 1 talent worth taking which is the same
T3: nothing useful
T4: Unless the other abilities are super OP, tree of life will be the required choice here.
T5: as you said, another letdown. Vortex vs Demo roar might be interesting for fights with adds, but for the majority of stuff this tier is just useless.
T6: Only Desp. Prayer is worth taking
T6: only one talent is worth thinking about

It's not that there is nothing good, there are talents that look cool, but when you think about it, there is no choice. It's a natural consequence of having a single tree for 4 separate specs.

T4 looks well done to me. You say Tree of Life is required, but Wild Charge seems good still (instant movement is good, free spell every X seconds isn't bad...well, assuming they make mana matter for druids, which it kinda doesn't atm). We really have no idea what the trees will do, presumably cast some heals, it'll be a pure numbers game on that vs tree of life I'd think...but this just goes back to what I've been saying, I don't think they will really create interesting choices for anyone.

Also, every tier shouldn't be related to your primary job or something. I think Typhoon and Ursol's belong in the tree, but I'd put them both in the same tier with IDK what for a 3rd option (Maybe Demo Roar). Nothing wrong with a tier being pure utility.

I really think every class in every tier will either have a pre-determined choice or a mostly irrelevant utility choice. Hunter trees are pretty boring at the moment too. I don't even know what I will pick in some tiers (depends how the #s work out), but I don't think there's going to be any choice.

[aurik]

Then you agree with what I've been saying.

For pve healer druids, T4 is the only tier which MAY be interesting--and that's only if the other choices are tuned to be very, very good or tree is tuned to be bad. The rest of the choices aren't really choices at all.

Everyone other class right now is looking at their trees are saying "well that might be an interesting decision", but the fact of the matter is that most of those trees will turn out very uninteresting with only one real correct choice for a given spec/activity.

And thus we're back to the status quo: there is only really one core way to talent for most spec/activity, with perhaps a few points which don't matter much. Only, post-5.0 it will be even harder to be one of those short-bus specialists that manages to miss "required" talents.

[Kaylia]

At first glance, I do think the expansion says "Pandas everywhere!" (even if you and I know better).

Technically, they will be everywhere once people start leveling them!

I agree with what you said, but I do think silliness is part of the reason why many reacted negatively. I mean, most people are fine with a certain amount of silly here and there, but this expansion seem to make it more "in your face" than ever.

Everyone laughed at the April fool in 2005, everyone laughed when they added a single neutral hero Panda, but this expansion is pushing thing a little beyond that, especially since they had no representation until now (beside a single quest).

[Intrinsic]

Don't see what the big deal is about pandas. Not gonna play one myself, but to quit a game you're enjoying because some race is being introduced seems ridiculous. I guess people are incredibly insecure.

[Meresgi]

especially since they had no representation until now (beside a single quest).

Other then the huge write up on their lore in the table top book like one of the devs posted earlier about. But yeah they didn't have anything in game but I mean Draenei had no representation at all in the game till BC at all.

[Kaylia]

Other then the huge write up on their lore in the table top book like one of the devs posted earlier about. But yeah they didn't have anything in game but I mean Draenei had no representation at all in the game till BC at all.

At the same time, they often call this book "not canon". I don't really have any issue with this, but I think they could have done a better job introducing the Panda slowly over a few expansion than making a continent appears out of nowhere.

I think draenir is a bit different since they had a strong connection with demons and the burning legion (one of the most important aspect of WoW). I understand why some people had trouble with sci-fi material in a game that is essentially medieval, but I thought it was easier to take them seriously because of what they were associated with. They were essentially good version or Archimonde.

Panda simply don't have the vibe that they are connected to one of the main plot line (and they probably are not).

[FailureMidgard]

At the same time, they often call this book "not canon". I don't really have any issue with this, but I think they could have done a better job introducing the Panda slowly over a few expansion than making a continent appears out of nowhere.

I think draenir is a bit different since they had a strong connection with demons and the burning legion (one of the most important aspect of WoW). I understand why some people had trouble with sci-fi material in a game that is essentially medieval, but I thought it was easier to take them seriously because of what they were associated with. They were essentially good version or Archimonde.

Panda simply don't have the vibe that they are connected to one of the main plot line (and they probably are not).

No, they -became- a good version of archimonde with the release of TBC. The Draenei in canon before TBC were released were Archimonde's race of demons. There was 0 reference to any of them at all being good. It made roughly as much sense as Pandas do now (arguably less sense).

[Boyiee]

Outland makes more sense than Pandaria.

[Meresgi]

Outland makes more sense than Pandaria.

Even though both are referenced in Lore quite heavily, and that the entire story they are using to show Pandaria is the same story they used for the zone of Uldum? D:

At least the Panderan didn't show up driving a spaceship.

[Kaylia]

No, they -became- a good version of archimonde with the release of TBC. The Draenei in canon before TBC were released were Archimonde's race of demons. There was 0 reference to any of them at all being good. It made roughly as much sense as Pandas do now (arguably less sense).

I love how you arbitrarily decide that two completely different things are roughly the same.

[The Stig]

I just had the unpleasant experience of sitting in auction house with volume on while I went to do some laundry. Had 3 guys pull out these Pandaren pets.

They all started making noises.



I thought one was bad.

3 was horrible.

I dearly hope they don't make those noises as part of their battle sounds haha

[Meresgi]

I love how you arbitrarily decide that two completely different things are roughly the same.

2 races tossed into the game w/o any real backing in the current "WoW lolore" is completely different. Not to mention that Drainpipes werent even supposed to be there and instead they wanted Pandas. So if anything the Alliance Drainpipes have even less going for them then Pandas.

[FailureMidgard]

I love how you arbitrarily decide that two completely different things are roughly the same.

No, that's not it at all. I'm going to use a math example because it's the clearest way to explain this. I said that the square root of 2 and pi are both equally irrational numbers (or more specifically, they are both equally not rational numbers). I am in no way saying they are roughly the same number. I realize they are quite different numbers, however, on the topic of whether they are rational, they are both equally irrational (there is no such thing as "more irrational" when it comes to numbers).

This isn't even a good example however, because Pandarens -do- exist according to WoW lore, and there was a reference to Pandarens in WoW. Draenei existing in their current form had -0- references in game or lore until TBC came out, and there was a huge uproar from the lore nerds when Draenei were announced as the player race beause it went entirely contrary to what the draenei race was. It'd be like adding succubus as a playable alliance race and claiming they weren't all demonic...

[Siniroth]

Oh please, Succubi would be Horde

[solracht]

I think bringing draenei up now is sort of pointless. They came during a different period in the game's storyline. I mean, Metzen even apologized right after. I dare you to find an interview nowadays where he doesn't act like he's 100% right ("YOU GUYS DON'T UNDERSTAND PANDAS!").

Also while the draenei's role with Sargeras may have been completely twisted (Sargeras corrupting the draenei rather than being corrupted by them), the role of the draenei in Outlands (where the expansion took place) was not retconned: they were still martyrs of outlands, driven away and killed by orcs.

Either way, I stand by what I said. I don't think the issue here is Pandaren vs. other races. The issue is Mist of Pandaria vs. other expansions.

Had we gone to Argus and had the premise of the Burning Crusade been "go to Argus to meet these blue goats we just retconned and never talked about... oh and maybe we'll have alliance and horde war for a lil", I'm sure the uproar would've been the same we're seeing now. It was pretty clear we were going to Outland to dethrone Illidan, one of our favorite Warcraft III pals, from the very beginning, since the very first tidbits of information. Anything else? Who cared.

Blood elves and Draenei were pivotal races in the Burning Crusade's storyline, but they let us find that out naturally as we progressed through it. Pandas instead are being forced down our throats and in the spotlight since the very beginning... the difference is the reason why they're important is not as clear.


TL;DR: Blizzard could've made the Alliance vs. Horde war the banner of the new expansion, with Pandaren as nothing more than the natives of the land we're about to fuck up, and nobody would've cared they were a joke race, just like nobody cared about retconned blue goats (enough to let them ruin the expansion for them, anyways).

[Kaylia]

Or maybe they didnt go with panda because at the time, they thought it was a bad choice?