Random Mists of Pandaria Discussion

[ringthree]

yay ass rogues get their own Execute (called Dispatch)

They already have one in Backstab, but this one doesn't have positioning requirements which makes things like Rags and Staghelm easier.

[Meresgi]

They already have one in Backstab, but this one doesn't have positioning requirements which makes things like Rags and Staghelm easier.

In pvp that's just what they need though? gg living through smokebomb O:

Edit: Dk's get control undead, that's kind of cool I guess...but how many undead are we really going to encounter in Pandaria? I would like to see it benefit us more in a raid setting or something.

[The Stig]

They already have one in Backstab, but this one doesn't have positioning requirements which makes things like Rags and Staghelm easier.

Ah yes I forgot. Infact, I don't use backstab as ass rogue (I know this is bad!). I'm personally finding it a DPS loss due on some fights due to movement or positioning and actively trying to get around to try and backstab has become very difficult for me, resulting in me fumbling a little bit and not doing my proper rotation. Hence, I haven't used it in a long time and totally disregarded the ability's existence.

Edit: Dk's get control undead, that's kind of cool I guess...but how many undead are we really going to encounter in Pandaria? I would like to see it benefit us more in a raid setting or something.

Duh, it's purely for Scholomance heroic.

[Meresgi]

Duh, it's purely for Scholomance heroic.

Totally forgot that was going in, yay for having CC for a 5man XD.

Also noticed DK's are losing
- Desecration
- Endless Winter
- Chill of the Grave
- Magic Suppression
- Runic Power Mastery
- Icy Reach

Some of those are pretty major for the class

And nerves of cold steel as well, which makes DW very viable for dmg....

[Correction]

Tricks of the Trade getting bumped to level 78 makes no fucking sense whatsoever. What was their reasoning behind moving Hunter MD from 70 to 76?

Edit:



heh

[Siniroth]

Jesus lock is going to be fun in mists

[Guitarman]

In pvp that's just what they need though? gg living through smokebomb O:

Edit: Dk's get control undead, that's kind of cool I guess...but how many undead are we really going to encounter in Pandaria? I would like to see it benefit us more in a raid setting or something.

Big assumption on my end, but if you're raiding with an unholy dk as frost or blood, control their perma minion so you have a 5 min ghoul vs the 30 sec one we have now. It's a good amount more dps for hard dps check fights.

[Meresgi]

Big assumption on my end, but if you're raiding with an unholy dk as frost or blood, control their perma minion so you have a 5 min ghoul vs the 30 sec one we have now. It's a good amount more dps for hard dps check fights.

If it acts like enslave demon, which im sure it will be a carbon copy of, you won't be able to control player pets or players, meaning using it on Lichborne popping DK's wont work either. Who knows on the player part since no one really had demon form back in the day, but I know you couldnt enslave a pet.

[niwaar]

Totally forgot that was going in, yay for having CC for a 5man XD.

Also noticed DK's are losing
- Desecration
- Endless Winter
- Chill of the Grave
- Magic Suppression
- Runic Power Mastery
- Icy Reach

Some of those are pretty major for the class

And nerves of cold steel as well, which makes DW very viable for dmg....

Gotta remember that these are far from finished abilities and talents. You will notice that some ability tooltips have been updated while others still refer to things that are now removed.

That being said, I would say that Blizzard has been trying to get away from things like Magic Suppression for a while now. Where with Endless Winter, they want interrupts to be important and not thrown around willy-nilly. I foresee all the former glyphs and talents that make them "free" to be removed for 5.0. As for things like Chill of the Grave, Icy Reach, Nerves of Cold Steel and Runic Power Mastery, they can easily be folded into the defaults without having to say "oh yeah we are now giving you a bonus for this".

Desecration got changed into that talent Desecrated Ground. A mediocre ability at best since its radius is much smaller, it lacks the movement speed debuff and has to be taken versus Remorseless Winter or Gorefiend's Grasp.

I am actually quite happy with the DK changes and talent tree overall. It is probably the most complete and interesting of the current trees. When you take a look at the disaster that is Paladin and Druid and the absolutely lackluster Mage and Hunter trees you thank your lucky stars they did well with DKs and Warlocks.

You also scratch your head with what they have done with Shaman. Since they have conveniently left out some base abilities for the class in this build of the calculator. No Purge? No word on the old buff totems (Windfury, Wrath of Air, etc). I think this proves that they are far from done and this is only a "look at what we think we want to do" post. We will see many many threads of bitching and whining about this in the coming week.

I for one would never have posted rage costs for tanking abilities until I had come out and shown what they had planned for tanking. I can tell you right now, I am glad I have a DK and a Paladin tank, cause it looks like troubled times coming for the two rage based tanks.

[Mortilox]

Do hope that "Campaign" thing they're adding in 5.0 is enough fun, soloable(Some parts I guess, some parts should require cooperation) and in depth. I'd hope at least plenty of level 90 locations to defend/attack. Maybe they could ignite the war between alliance and horde again and bring back some world PvP with this. This game needs more solo content to keep me interested. yeah, it's an MMO, I know. I just can't stand how it is now. Dailies are boring as fuck and repetitive. I stay far away from dungeons and have since capping VP rewards.

Really the class changes look good, but if they don't fuck this part up I might come back for mists.

[niwaar]

Really the class changes look good, but if they don't fuck this part up I might come back for mists.

We can all hope that the current posted talent/abilities are not set in stone. Hell, the current calculator shows that only Resto druids get non combat res and Holy Wrath is now a completely useless cast time Holy only spell.

[ringthree]

Ah yes I forgot. Infact, I don't use backstab as ass rogue (I know this is bad!). I'm personally finding it a DPS loss due on some fights due to movement or positioning and actively trying to get around to try and backstab has become very difficult for me, resulting in me fumbling a little bit and not doing my proper rotation. Hence, I haven't used it in a long time and totally disregarded the ability's existence.

Yeah, that is terribad...

You just need to use Mutilate when you can't get behind, but you always want to use Backstab if you can. The talent and glyph functionality for the execute phase for Assassination is very nice, it's a huge DPS boost. Remember, Rogue isn't like other classes, if you try to use Backstab and it doesn't work because of positioning, then you can use Mutilate with absolutely no cost to your DPS. You don't lose anything from waiting (major caveat: unless you energy cap, which you should never ever do).

Also, only Rags and Staghelm have issues with positioning in Firelands. Rags is only bad if your tanks are tanking him in the center, and if they are doing that then they are bad. Staghelm can suck a dick, LOL If I wasn't so lazy I would go Combat, but I don't feel like reforging for one fight, or wasting lots on a Combat main hand.

[Plow]

Gotta remember that these are far from finished abilities and talents. You will notice that some ability tooltips have been updated while others still refer to things that are now removed.

That being said, I would say that Blizzard has been trying to get away from things like Magic Suppression for a while now. Where with Endless Winter, they want interrupts to be important and not thrown around willy-nilly. I foresee all the former glyphs and talents that make them "free" to be removed for 5.0. As for things like Chill of the Grave, Icy Reach, Nerves of Cold Steel and Runic Power Mastery, they can easily be folded into the defaults without having to say "oh yeah we are now giving you a bonus for this".

Desecration got changed into that talent Desecrated Ground. A mediocre ability at best since its radius is much smaller, it lacks the movement speed debuff and has to be taken versus Remorseless Winter or Gorefiend's Grasp.

I am actually quite happy with the DK changes and talent tree overall. It is probably the most complete and interesting of the current trees. When you take a look at the disaster that is Paladin and Druid and the absolutely lackluster Mage and Hunter trees you thank your lucky stars they did well with DKs and Warlocks.

You also scratch your head with what they have done with Shaman. Since they have conveniently left out some base abilities for the class in this build of the calculator. No Purge? No word on the old buff totems (Windfury, Wrath of Air, etc). I think this proves that they are far from done and this is only a "look at what we think we want to do" post. We will see many many threads of bitching and whining about this in the coming week.

I for one would never have posted rage costs for tanking abilities until I had come out and shown what they had planned for tanking. I can tell you right now, I am glad I have a DK and a Paladin tank, cause it looks like troubled times coming for the two rage based tanks.

I pretty much completely disagree, huge, HUGE chunks of what actually makes dk interesting are gone. We'll see what they do long term, but right now the DK tree looks extremely boring with extremely obvious "choices" in pretty much every tier.

[niwaar]

I pretty much completely disagree, huge, HUGE chunks of what actually makes dk interesting are gone. We'll see what they do long term, but right now the DK tree looks extremely boring with extremely obvious "choices" in pretty much every tier.

While I do agree that things like Outbreak in the first tier just shouldn't be there, I find it hard to fathom you believing what makes them interesting are gone. I will say that I would rather not see the spec flavor completely lost by stripping them of these abilities and sticking them into talents. Things like Chillblains make for an interesting choice, but not against Death's Advance for PvP. Vampiric Blood should have remained a Blood default ability as well.

I still believe that the DK and Warlock trees are the closest to what they want to achieve with the new Talent systems. Fundamental choice. Where some specs will definitely go for a few specific talents, there are some real choices here. Where if you look at other trees, Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Hunter, the choices have pretty much already been made for you.

On that note though, I am curious to know what you believe these "huge chunks" have been removed from DK? As a blood DK I see at least 2 fundamental take cooldowns being removed by having to choose between Lichform and Bone Armor and then again between VB and Death Pact. Seeing as the other tanks are seeing similar removal or changes in their cooldowns I have no issue with this. Will I miss having a fear break? Hell yes I will, but can I have it when I antcipate needing it? Yes I can. Is its effect on par with the other two cooldowns in that tier? No, but it is an option that I can foresee using on certain trash and encounter designs. (Especially if Bone Armor continues to be a poor excuse for a cooldown.)

[Plow]

Why would you even take BA over lichborne as a tank CD? lol, completely regardless of the fear break, lichborne is indispensable

Death pact appears to be trash as well, unless it's getting a MASSIVE buff, which considering it no longer kills the ghoul is pretty damn unlikely.

Ok so let's see...


All DPS dk lose:
blood tap
epidemic
death pact
butchery
improved presences
all dual wield value

in addition,

PvP Frost loses:
Chillbains
Hungering Cold
1 min cd on strang or resilient infection
free interrupt
shadowfrost build is officially completely gone thanks to no RI

PVP Unholy loses:
Desecration
Resilient Infection or Unholy Blight (well both but you don't take both anyway)
Magic Suppression
AMZ
free interrupt
etc.

Just what I've listed there are absolutely massive losses to DK, and that's not touching tanking or even getting very in depth.

Not just losses, either, but losses in the aspects that most define the DK.

[Meresgi]

Yeah, though it's still alpha basically, there needs to be something concrete soon on what DKs are losing/gaining, because it's just far too much from the losing department to justify even playing the class going into MoP. Shit,the class gets hallowed out more and more, by MoP we'll just be warriors with a blue rage bar and a pet (which we basically are right now minus a stun gap closer)

[ringthree]

Alpha is alpha, kids.

Also, just because you need/want something now, doesn't mean it will be even slightly important in the next expansion.

[Guitarman]

You're misunderstanding what they're saying. Since ICC, DK have been slowly losing everything that made us unique. First it was the aoe insect swarm, then corpse explosion and ghoul rez. Now death strike is exactly like victory rush, with a middle of the fight use that's lolable at best. At this rate, we really will be reskinned warriors by MoP.

[Meko]

Don't feel left out, they did the same with all other classes too.

[ringthree]

You're misunderstanding what they're saying. Since ICC, DK have been slowly losing everything that made us unique. First it was the aoe insect swarm, then corpse explosion and ghoul rez. Now death strike is exactly like victory rush, with a middle of the fight use that's lolable at best. At this rate, we really will be reskinned warriors by MoP.

"Since ICC, [Insert X job here] have been slowly losing everything that made us unique."

My experience with DK is very different than Warrior. But I tend not to look at the individual abilities and more look at mechanics. That said there is a move to hybridization because of PvP even among the DPS classes (CC breaks, self-healing, etc.) but I am not going to touch the PvP vs. PvE design debate here.

What I don't understand is that you say you are losing unique things, and one of them is something you are getting back. Corpse Explosion. I actually found the DK talents to be some of the most unique and interesting talents. And perhaps most importantly, it looks like they have a tier of talents that actually effects game play mechanics for the class so you can pick the rune regeneration model that you prefer (yes, one will likely parse to be better, but I have found that this kind of thing can massively effect DPS if you can't control the mechanics correctly).

That said, let me reemphasize this: ALPHA IS ALPHA. The problem is that you are looking at some new things and some old things are the same time. Honestly, for now, I would just look at things in a vacuum and not as a whole yet.

If you want to see some lame talents, go look at what the Rogues have to put up with... yuck. Your grass is far more green.