Random Mists of Pandaria Discussion

[Meko]

I probably wouldn't have bought the next expansion anyway considering how boring I have found Cataclysm but I can't help but laugh at how bad MoP looks. I got quite a few messages from friends asking "wtf?".

What makes it look so bad?

[Siniroth]

It's less the melee range and more the thought of it being balanced enough to be able to work based on an energy type bar rather than a mana type bar. They'd lose out on being able to say, flash heal a whole mana bar away, but they'd require more skill to use the energy bar effectively

[Norellicus]

Man I neeeeeeeeeeeed a haters gonna hate gif with the panda monks balancing on one leg. Like, yesterday. So many places to put it to good use today.

[aurik]

Oh ok.

Considering I'm the animation engineer for a AAA console title, I kinda do know wtf, that's what makes it so funny.

[Gulkeeva]

If it looks anything like the skeletons on FFXI modeling... I'd hate to be the guy doing it for wow, that stuff is a nightmare clusterfuck mass of... alot of shit

You got like the head/hands/legs/body

then you gotta do weights for each, then a weight per weapon type, then attach a skeleton + weight to each motion, set the frame lenght, frame timing, link them, make sure it works.. repeat etc etc

(took 6-8 hours to do a mithra " custom sheething" animation for 2 1 handed axe's if that gives you an idea, which is about 2-3 second motion ingame)

[Eaglestrike]

Well, it seems that Art Director Chris Robinson seems to disagree with you.

Of course you will just say it's just Blizzard being retarded, but I think he might know a little better than you.

/shrug

I would say the issue is moreso that existing model clipping/bugs are unintended bugs, whereas they'd knowingly be making this issues by changing skeletons, so they will not knowingly create all sorts of inconsistencies. If it happens, it happens, but they won't do something that would cause such issues without then taking care of the issues.

[ringthree]

Whatever the case is, it is obvious that there would be a lot of work involved in redoing the older models, but at least they are going to do it.

[Galkaeater]

I hope they get rolling wild instead of a mount

[Lordender]

that made me laugh way too hard.

[Meresgi]

So I was thinking more about the talent changes today and I like that when the expansion hits, the talent system as they want it will make it so people arn't "Oh you're a frost DK, oh you're a UH DK"..it will just be "Oh you're a DK, what fun shit did you pick?"

[aurik]

that made me laugh way too hard.

I think you mean

[Siniroth]

So I was thinking more about the talent changes today and I like that when the expansion hits, the talent system as they want it will make it so people arn't "Oh you're a frost DK, oh you're a UH DK"..it will just be "Oh you're a DK, what fun shit did you pick?"

I took it as there will still be specs, where you'll automatically get necessary things (PW: B for disc, etc), but the extra talents you see will be customizable

[FailureMidgard]

I took it as there will still be specs, where you'll automatically get necessary things (PW: B for disc, etc), but the extra talents you see will be customizable

This is how I think it will work as well....you may even get passives for choosing a spec (DW spec for a frost DK for example).

[Norellicus]

Yeah, there will still be class specs. But your talents won't be tied to that spec, instead you're just going to receive automatic progression in the "old talent tree" in the form of new abilities given at level increments. So you'll still pick Blood/Frost/Unholy DK, except now everything that is considered "staple" to that spec in the current talent system will just become spells you learn automatically as you level. The new talents will then be a freeform set of choices that give you some flavor options and also some arguably difficult decisions ("these are both pretty awesome, which one should I pick!?").

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah, there will still be class specs. But your talents won't be tied to that spec, instead you're just going to receive automatic progression in the "old talent tree" in the form of new abilities given at level increments. So you'll still pick Blood/Frost/Unholy DK, except now everything that is considered "staple" to that spec in the current talent system will just become spells you learn automatically as you level. The new talents will then be a freeform set of choices that give you some flavor options and also some arguably difficult decisions ("these are both pretty awesome, which one should I pick!?").

Arguably difficult, arguably being the key word. ;p
Any tier tied to damage will have a "best" generally, with maybe a "best for XYZ scenario"...exactly how it is now.
These utility tiers even will have "best" options a lot of the time, or situational options some of the time.
I don't think it will be as great as Blizzard does with people able to truly choose what they like for playstyle/etc (Hunter:45 tier is a perfect example of this I think...nobody is going to take a 15% heal on landing from disengage IMO...the runspeed buff -maybe- someone would take, but unlikely[for PvE]...everyone is going to take the 3second immunity, allowing you to disengage through ground effects, or avoid large aoes every 25seconds? It's basically 4x deterrence...)

Then you have the druid tree which just looks like all sorts of amazing to me.

[Norellicus]

They intend the talents to be swappable like glyphs, so yes there will probably be ideal choices for specific encounters, but the intent is that there won't ever be a single option that just glares obviously as the best one for every single person who plays the class/spec. They don't want it to be "which one of these increases dps?" -- they all do, but they each do it with a bit of a different style.

[Meresgi]

Ahhh, that saddens me slightly I was hoping for more of everyone got most things...but yeah I could see issues with that if ferals got tree of life, makes sense.

[FailureMidgard]

They intend the talents to be swappable like glyphs, so yes there will probably be ideal choices for specific encounters, but the intent is that there won't ever be a single option that just glares obviously as the best one for every single person who plays the class/spec. They don't want it to be "which one of these increases dps?" -- they all do, but they each do it with a bit of a different style.

I realize they are in early forms at the moment, but it's not gonna work out where they increase DPS with different styles. Examples from the hunter tree:
Arcane Arrows - Auto Shots have a 50% chance to restore 5 focus.
Venom Tipped Arrows - Stacking poison DoT, stacks to 5.
Frozen Arrows - Auto Shots have a 30% chance to reduce move speed by 30% for 10 sec.

Arcane and Venom will have a DPS value associated with them, it may very from spec to spec, but there will always be a best. Frozen will not be touched in PvE (30% chance for a single target slow? Right, people will rely on well, reliable slows, maybe someone would use this for solo...) there is no playstyle option here.

Only one other hunter tier affects DP:
Fervor - 2min cd, +50 focus to you and pet.
Readiness - Finishes CD on all hunter abilities.
Thrill of the Hunt - 15% chance when firing a shot to regain 100% of the focus cost of the shot.

Comparing Fervor and Thrill of the hunt...last Baleroc (4min 22 sec, so 3 Fervor uses) I fired:
49 AiS, 7.35 procs @ 50 focus each = 367 focus
22 Chimera Shots, 3.3 procs @ 44 focus each = 145 focus.
That's 512 focus...if you want to round down, that's 482 focus. Each fervor use is 100 total focus, so 300 total focus gained, except half of that is pet focus which is significantly worse than hunter focus (this is true even for beast, since Kill Command is hunter focus, and arcane shots increase pet damage).
It's just not even close tbh, it's not playstyle, it's just stupid.
Comparing with readiness is a little bit harder with pure #s (I'm too lazy to figure it out right now), but it will be quite easy to sim it, and it will definitely beat Fervor hands down, but may be close with Thrill for sustained. I guess Thrill is significantly ahead, you'd have the choice of better burst vs better sustained, but I don't think it is significantly ahead (may be close), which means you'd almost always opt for the "same sustained with potential for way better burst".

I haven't looked through all the classes trees, but any time damage is there, there will be a best option, with maybe a few side cases of a real choice (Rogue 90 Vendetta granting a ranged attack could make it worthwhile even if lower dps?), but mostly it's just not going to be like that...

[Norellicus]

Making a lot of assumptions based on face value of the talents plus no idea how the internal class designs will change ;/

[FailureMidgard]

Making a lot of assumptions based on face value of the talents plus no idea how the internal class designs will change ;/

I'm using the current trees as examples, not really assuming anything. The only assumption I'm making is numbers exist, and that the current (and old) trees had "options" as well. In fact, by forcing 31 pts into a tree, they eliminated options (it used to be a 21pt talent vs a 41pt talent or w/e, so you had the option for either).

I agree right now it's impossible to tell what's the best. Maybe Thrill of the Hunt will end up worse than fervor, but regardless how it works out, it's just a numbers game, and there won't be true choice or a move away from cookie cutter.

If they want choice, they have to make situational abilities (including in damage). Examples:
Higher Burst but lower sustained vs higher sustained.
Curse of Doom vs Curse of Agony (better DPS assuming 1min duration, worse DPS on low HP/short duration things).
Meaningful utility vs damage.

Is it possible? Sure. Could they full overhaul the trees and accomplish this? Sure. Do I think the will? lol no. I think it's going to end up with dps talent vs dps talent, and math will come out with 1 winner in -most- situations, with the other maybe being better every now and then...I'd love to see it work out where there's a good sustained dps talent vs a good burst talent, so maybe you'd take the burst one for h-Rag to get 1 meteor and the sustained for Baleroc since there's no need for burst or w/e, but I don't think they are even thinking on those terms, they are just trying to stuff as many unique effects into the trees as they can....