Random Mists of Pandaria Discussion

[Kaylia]

I like some choice like pursuit of justice on paladin (1/2/3 holy power =10/20/30% speed, 1min CD for burst speed or judgement make you run faster for few sec. They are similar, yet, very situational.

[The Stig]

It's great though, I mean, look at us arguing now. There will never be a best overall selection. However, there will be, an overall best select per situation!

I like it really. Very fun and thoughtful.

As I said a page back or 2 ...

BLADESTORM. AS WARRIOR TANK. FUCK YEAH!

[FailureMidgard]

I like some choice like pursuit of justice on paladin (1/2/3 holy power =10/20/30% speed, 1min CD for burst speed or judgement make you run faster for few sec. They are similar, yet, very situational.

And here I'm thinking as a Holy Paladin, you have 1 option. As a ret paladin Pursuit of Justice is just awful?
Really, I think Holy gets Speed of Light, Ret gets Long Arm of the Law, and prot...no idea, they all suck? I don't see how they are situational in the least...

It's great though, I mean, look at us arguing now. There will never be a best overall selection. However, there will be, an overall best select per situation!

I like it really. Very fun and thoughtful.

As I said a page back or 2 ...

BLADESTORM. AS WARRIOR TANK. FUCK YEAH!

There isn't an always best now either...we're in fact not arguing over 2 different builds and which is better, I'm specifically arguing that numbers will flat out call certain talents better than others. It won't necessarily be true in every tier for every class, but it's going to happen.

[The Stig]

There isn't an always best now either...we're in fact not arguing over 2 different builds and which is better, I'm specifically arguing that numbers will flat out call certain talents better than others. It won't necessarily be true in every tier for every class, but it's going to happen.

My bad, I misunderstood. Went back to re-read what you both were saying. I was skimming initially.

[Kaylia]

And here I'm thinking as a Holy Paladin, you have 1 option. As a ret paladin Pursuit of Justice is just awful?
Really, I think Holy gets Speed of Light, Ret gets Long Arm of the Law, and prot...no idea, they all suck? I don't see how they are situational in the least...

Depending of the potency, speed of light might be good for all 3 classes to survive a burn phase, and speed burst might come handy. However, it's still a wasted gcd (no mana cost tho) if the healing component is trivial.

Long arm is the best to chase a monsters, but its uptime is going to be shaky if you change target very often, and it's not going to see much use in phase transition and similar stuff. Judgement range is not that long in the first place.

Pursuit of justice is slower, but its going to have the best uptime of the 3. Prot and holy are also going to be able to uses it whenever since they can build a few stack of hp.



I don't think the choice is as easy as you make it sound, since it varies a lot from encounter to encounter.

[aurik]

And thus every encounter will have an optimum, and that optimum will be fairly static with slight variations from fight to fight.

[FailureMidgard]

Depending of the potency, speed of light might be good for all 3 classes to survive a burn phase, and speed burst might come handy. However, it's still a wasted gcd (no mana cost tho) if the healing component is trivial.

Long arm is the best to chase a monsters, but its uptime is going to be shaky if you change target very often, and it's not going to see much use in phase transition and similar stuff. Judgement range is not that long in the first place.

Pursuit of justice is slower, but its going to have the best uptime of the 3. Prot and holy are also going to be able to uses it whenever since they can build a few stack of hp.



I don't think the choice is as easy as you make it sound, since it varies a lot from encounter to encounter.

Fights don't vary that much, they never have. You need runspeed for target swaps, you are never swapping targets at ranged every 4 seconds. There hasn't been a fight yet, there won't be a fight like that.
Relying on holding holy power for runspeed just seems awful to me. It's a less amount, and most the time you don't even need runspeed at all (which is why on some classes, people argue on runspeed/X vs just X for boot enchants). When you do, it's usually at specific points in time. In this tier of content, that's limited to:
Beth'tilac, new add comes out.
Shannox, none.
Rhyolith, none.
Alysrazor - generally none, maybe if you switch targets every now and then, but your tank is tanking it wrong if you need runspeed here.
Baleroc - Countdown.
Domo, none (as melee).
Rag - helps for spreading with seeds (tho druid Roar > ), helps for moving from 1 son to another, helps for movement in P3 and P4.

1min CD is plenty for Baleroc, judgment speed boost is just as good. Judgment is best for Bethtilac, Judgment is best for Alysrazor if needed at all.
For Rag, I'd say judgment also just because it's generally going to be spikey/bursty movement, only argument against it is the aoe heal would be a cool option to have (if it heals for anything significant).

Uptime on movespeed is just a silly thing to talk about, saying Pursuit has the best uptime is so meaningless, as neither tanks nor healers are in constant motion, and in fact a holy pally in constant motion means you're about to wipe. It's about getting from point A to point B at the right time in as little time as possible, and the goal is to avoid doing this as much as possible.
Even if these change/etc, I bet if you go look at top guilds a year from now, you'll see the same choice on virtually every person of X spec for Y fight. The biggest strength to this system is easy "respecs", but if they just let you respec in the field now for 5g, you'd see a lot more people switching shit from fight to fight.

[Kaylia]

And thus every encounter will have an optimum, and that optimum will be fairly static with slight variations from fight to fight.

What is your definition of "slightly"? If I change 3 skills out of 6, that's half of my tree already.

Every fights is going to have an optimal setup obviously. What matter is how much it's going to change from fight to fight. Are all 3 skills going to be considered worthwhile for an entire raid, or one of them will be vastly superior 90% of the time?

Relying on holding holy power for runspeed just seems awful to me. It's a less amount, and most the time you don't even need runspeed at all (which is why on some classes, people argue on runspeed/X vs just X for boot enchants). When you do, it's usually at specific points in time. In this tier of content, that's limited to:

It's very debatable. You can do just fine without it, but sometime, that patch of fire is going to spawn under your feet and you have to move out. You're not going to hold on Judgement just to get your speed bonus, and you're probably not going to pop a gcd either. In this scenario, the skills that has the best uptime is pursuit of justice.


I'm incredibly confused with your argument that run speed is useless. People failing at mechanics (or just not reacting fast enough) is always going to be an issue even if you say otherwise, especially when you're learning the fight.

[Meresgi]

I honestly wouldn't even view the new talents while thinking in terms of Firelands...I hope. I can only hope that with a new talent system we get more interesting fights because we can change on the fly. Yes there will be optimum talents for each fight but I can only hop that changes from boss to boss where 1 you might need run speed + burst dmg and another you need long term dps + slows and another you need x + y.

[FailureMidgard]

It's very debatable. You can do just fine without it, but sometime, that patch of fire is going to spawn under your feet and you have to move out. You're not going to hold on Judgement just to get your speed bonus, and you're probably not going to pop a gcd either. In this scenario, the skills that has the best uptime is pursuit of justice.

There's very little these days that matters on. Shannox traps are an all-or-nothing, and runspeed won't help with all the people that get hit by it. This uptime is still meaningless (and there's always the boot enchant which probably won't stack with pursuit but will stack with the others?...also, this is an assumption, which is also one you're making that the 1min cd is even on gcd). If you -need- runspeed you have it. Every spec of paladin uses judgment, you can just save it a few seconds to get the runspeed when needed/etc (this is how most movement works).

I'm incredibly confused with your argument that run speed is useless. People failing at mechanics (or just not reacting fast enough) is always going to be an issue even if you say otherwise, especially when you're learning the fight.

I didn't say it's useless, I said "most the time you don't need runspeed". My point here is that you don't need it -most- the time which is why uptime is a silly statistic, all that matters is "uptime during relevant periods/movement", which rogues can already get damn near 100% on relevant fights with sprint.

I honestly wouldn't even view the new talents while thinking in terms of Firelands...I hope. I can only hope that with a new talent system we get more interesting fights because we can change on the fly. Yes there will be optimum talents for each fight but I can only hop that changes from boss to boss where 1 you might need run speed + burst dmg and another you need long term dps + slows and another you need x + y.

People keep saying this, every new expansion. Fights have not got more interesting, and I highly doubt that fights will change much come next expansion. However, I agree it's silly-ish to discuss too much in regards to FL but it's more to do with unique talents that were not accounted for and can trivialize fights, not slight differences between boring abilities.

[Kaylia]

There's very little these days that matters on. Shannox traps are an all-or-nothing, and runspeed won't help with all the people that get hit by it. This uptime is still meaningless (and there's always the boot enchant which probably won't stack with pursuit but will stack with the others?...also, this is an assumption, which is also one you're making that the 1min cd is even on gcd). If you -need- runspeed you have it. Every spec of paladin uses judgment, you can just save it a few seconds to get the runspeed when needed/etc (this is how most movement works).

Speed is obviously useless, no paladin ever took additional damage because they were always perfectly positioned and reacted properly to everything....I'm sorry, but I'm going to keep living in my imperfect world where even I fail occasionally, where random number occasionally fuck me up, and where I can't always predict when I need to react quickly.

Even for shannox, being able to cover 5 yard 40% faster is going to lower the reaction time needed to avoid a trap. Kiting shannox (or running after it) is where the speed would be the most useful tho.


Also, Pursuit of justice, like any temporary buff, is probably going to stack with any permanent bonus. It has nothing to do with the current trait that has no buff icon.

I didn't say it's useless, I said "most the time you don't need runspeed". My point here is that you don't need it -most- the time which is why uptime is a silly statistic, all that matters is "uptime during relevant periods/movement", which rogues can already get damn near 100% on relevant fights with sprint.

My point is that boss mechanics is the main cause of death, and moving faster usually give you more room to react. Uptime matter because it means it will be there for you more often.

The choice between all 3 speed bonus (excluding the healing component) basically come down to the predictability of mechanics that need movement, and if it's worthwhile to change your rotation for it (skip a judgement). You say there is a clear winner, but in my experience, the best skill will varies a lot from fight to fight.

[FailureMidgard]

Speed is obviously useless, no paladin ever took additional damage because they were always perfectly positioned and reacted properly to everything....I'm sorry, but I'm going to keep living in my imperfect world where even I fail occasionally, where random number occasionally fuck me up, and where I can't always predict when I need to react quickly.

Even for shannox, being able to cover 5 yard 40% faster is going to lower the reaction time needed to avoid a trap. Kiting shannox (or running after it) is where the speed would be the most useful tho.

Strawman. I'm not saying people don't fail, I'm saying when they do, 20% movespeed won't change the fail. Furthermore, fail for tanks is rarely if ever runspeed related. Yea, on Shannox runspeed can help, but guess what, it's at predictable points in time when you are trying to use mechanics to reset debuffs. This is exactly what I mean with predictable stuff. And as for trap dodging, just no, the movement required takes about half a second. With +20% movespeed, it takes .42seconds, so we're talking about .08 seconds difference. Since you have about a 2.5second window to move, you need to have about a 2 second reaction time for this to matter. When people fail this mechanic, they don't understand the fight or are not paying attention. I'm not saying anyone ever gets hit - I'm saying anyone that's paying attention and attempts to move never gets hit, and that running 20% faster is not going to matter

Also, Pursuit of justice, like any temporary buff, is probably going to stack with any permanent bonus. It has nothing to do with the current trait that has no buff icon.

This is not how runspeed buffs work, I'm sorry to say. Aspect of the Cheetah is a buff with an icon that does not stack with boots. Unholy presence, with an icon, does not stack with boots. Ghost Wolf, with an icon, does not stack with boots. I would say that buffs with a -duration- are the ones that don't stack, which this specifically doesn't have. If it -can- be permanent, it doesn't stack. If there's no way it can be permanent, it probably stacks.

My point is that boss mechanics is the main cause of death, and moving faster usually give you more room to react. Uptime matter because it means it will be there for you more often.

I agree that boss mechanics is the main cause of death. I'm saying that when running faster will help (it flat out doesn't on Shannox traps, I'm sorry...you see it or you don't, if you see it you have so much time to move it's not even funny, I've completed full hard-cast Aimed Shots and still moved out in time), that it's predictable as such

The choice between all 3 speed bonus (excluding the healing component) basically come down to the predictability of mechanics that need movement, and if it's worthwhile to change your rotation for it (skip a judgement). You say there is a clear winner, but in my experience, the best skill will varies a lot from fight to fight.

It may even vary from fight to fight, it still won't vary from person to person with the same spec on the same fight, it's still cookie cutter. But no, it won't vary as much as you think.

[Kaylia]

I'm not saying people don't fail, I'm saying when they do, 20% movespeed won't change the fail

"I moved out and still got hit"

Never happen.


It's stupid to argue about shannox trap. It's a mechanics that is relatively easy to avoid in a fight that is also easy. Obviously, it should not be a huge issue if people are paying attention, but the benefit that you deny still exist. Wwhat we are trying to do here is all 3 ability bies #1) maximizing your uptime on the boss (dps) #2) maximizing your survivability.

In both category, you're looking at trivial number, and because movement are handled differently in every fight (some don't even have movement), the optimal build is going to be differ from fight to fights.

I would say that buffs with a -duration- are the ones that don't stack, which this specifically doesn't have

Windwalk has a duration and stack.

Either way, it's stupid to argue about exact number when they will probably be balanced later, and that it could be balanced around the stacking (or lack of) if they wanted to make all 3 independant.

[FailureMidgard]

"I moved out and still got hit"

Never happen.

9 times out of 10, this is a player making an excuse. I've seen people say that so much while I stared at them not moving at all.

Windwalk got a duration and stack.

I think after all that I herp-derped and said it backwards. Buffs with no duration do not stack (Cheetah, GW, UHP). Buffs with limited durations do stack (Sprint, Windwalk, etc). If it -can- be permanent, it does not stack. If it cannot be permanent, it stacks.

[Kaylia]

I think after all that I herp-derped and said it backwards. Buffs with no duration do not stack (Cheetah, GW, UHP). Buffs with limited durations do stack (Sprint, Windwalk, etc). If it -can- be permanent, it does not stack. If it cannot be permanent, it stacks.

Either way, don't you agree it's irrelevant to argue about specific number and mechanics half a year away?

[FailureMidgard]

Either way, don't you agree it's irrelevant to argue about specific number and mechanics half a year away?

As to exactly which one will be better? Sure, they could change Pursuit to be 60/120/180 and then it'd pretty much be amazing.
It's not pointless to argue that -1- will be better, and I'm using current content to illustrate that point. Not to say which will be better a year for now, just to point out that if it went live now, it would not be like you say it is, it would be very cookie cutter with little to no change. It will be that way when it goes live, but the specifics could easily change which ends up the proper cookie cutter decision to make.

[Kaylia]

As to exactly which one will be better? Sure, they could change Pursuit to be 60/120/180 and then it'd pretty much be amazing.
It's not pointless to argue that -1- will be better, and I'm using current content to illustrate that point. Not to say which will be better a year for now, just to point out that if it went live now, it would not be like you say it is, it would be very cookie cutter with little to no change. It will be that way when it goes live, but the specifics could easily change which ends up the proper cookie cutter decision to make.

This is the point I completely disagree with. It will be cookies cutter if you look at a specific fight, not a whole raid.


The argument you're making with fireland boss is ridiculous since all you're doing is downplaying movement speed, when the choice is limited to 3 types of movement speed that works in different situation, with a minor healing component in one case.


For atramedes, I would love the 1min burst when I'm being chased. For chimeron, I'm going to take the healing since movement is not an issue, to tank neferian or maloriak's adds, I'm going to go with the one that has the best average, to dps shannox's dog on normal that move a lot, I'm probably going to go with a long arm. When I kite Shannox, I would hesitate between a speed burst or something that can last 15sec without any slow down (hard to tell which one would be the most reliable.


[edit]
Btw, long arm doesnt stack with passive speed boost, and has a timer if you said it backward in your previous post.

[Meresgi]

I don't see why anyone would downplay movement speed, it can be a huge boon on most fights even in current content. Shannox, Baelroc, Ryo, Alys, Domo, Rag, Beth, all of them require some movement (Bael being heroic mode) and the faster you can move the better because you can gain a little more up time on dps.

Now does moving 15-20% faster equate to 15-20% more damage? not really but if you are unlucky with placement or get caught with your pants down because no one is spot on every attempt then it can help out in the long run especially if you end up having to run around something to get into position

[FailureMidgard]

The argument you're making with fireland boss is ridiculous since all you're doing is downplaying movement speed, when the choice is limited to 3 types of movement speed that works in different situation, with a minor healing component in one case.

No, I'm saying when movement speed is necessary, it's in short bursts. This is why specific classes like combat rogues make an argument against runspeed enchants. Because any time they need to move, they have sprint up.

For atramedes, I would love the 1min burst when I'm being chased.

Or the judgment movement increase. Aka, not the one I'm saying is trashy.

For chimeron, I'm going to take the healing since movement is not an issue

I agree, and said as much originally, perfect example of not needing movement...

to tank neferian or maloriak's adds, I'm going to take the one with the best average

This makes no sense. Nefarian adds don't require movespeed, but if anything, the best burst is the best so you can move across the breath range as fast as possible. Kiting the adds the whole time makes the fight harder, not easier (though on normal it doesn't matter much since you don't even need a reset...). Maloriak's adds really don't need to be kited, maybe across a trap here and there, after which you just tank them. Again, I'd take the judgment speed boost to get a quick head start (BTW, 30% runspeed does not outrun them).

When I kite Shannox, I would hesitate between a speed burst or something that can last 15sec without any slow down (hard to tell which one would be the most reliable.

You generally only need 5-6 seconds to reset the debuff, and it's more useful on the Riplimb tank than the Shannox tank. The Shannox tank can "kite" Shannox with 0% runspeed since it's abusing a bug, not actually kiting him....

I don't see why anyone would downplay movement speed, it can be a huge boon on most fights even in current content. Shannox, Baelroc, Ryo, Alys, Domo, Rag, Beth, all of them require some movement (Bael being heroic mode) and the faster you can move the better because you can gain a little more up time on dps.

Shannox is in predictable bursts and predictable times.

Baleroc is once a minute at a predictable time maybe, or if you're talking ranged moving in to soak a shard, also 100% predictable.

Rhyo melee have to stutter step and don't move at all, ranged take 1-2 steps to the side to dodge a lava line. Runspeed does -not- help here.

Alys you get runspeed from feathers, and really there's little to no running needed anyway (run behind meteor in heroic, no runspeed needed for normal).

Domo only requires movement for ranged, at very predictable times once again. Furthermore, runspeed doesn't matter for dodging leaps (I guess it matters to collapse faster?), only ability to dps while moving matters for leaps...

Rag is movement heavy but again, runspeed doesn't help. Lava waves require 2 steps of movement in a 5-6 second period, if you get hit, you weren't paying attention, it has nothing to do with speed. Moving out of traps is similar, though maybe more like 3 seconds instead of 5-6. World in Flames maybe runspeed helps a little, but again, predictable time when you can use a burst. Most of phase4 is spent foot-planted in a frost patch, with predictable movement periods. Kiting meteors is a poor strategy used for normal because normal is faceroll (if you 1heal the fight, it's an acceptable strategy, otherwise it's just bad) and if anyone brings this up, it's like calling going for full parry expertise as a general thing good because you don't want to melee from the back.

Bethtilac is again, predictable time periods when a new big dude spawns (really though, most people send melee up top and there's thus very little movement...)

In the end, the dps uptime is the main reason movespeed is important, but again, this is rarely passive movement, and much more often is bursty movement for a specific purpose.

[Kaylia]

No, I'm saying when movement speed is necessary, it's in short bursts. This is why specific classes like combat rogues make an argument against runspeed enchants. Because any time they need to move, they have sprint up.

The problem is that neither judgement or holy power are "on demand". If you were asking me to choose between a 40% speed boost every 10 second and 10% per holy power, there would be no argument. It is -not- the case however. Judgement isn't always up, and holding it is going to net a dps loss unless it coincidently happen at the same time momement are needed, but the same thing could be said about Holy power.

If you want to argue about the number Blizzard gave us, I would say that most players would favor judgement, but if the boost is dropped to 30%, or if holy power is increased to 15%/stacks, the outcome would probably be a lot more even in your average situation, and would tilt more easily in favor of one or the two depending of the fight.

Or the judgment movement increase. Aka, not the one I'm saying is trashy.

Why would you opt for a 4sec 40% boost when you can get a 60% that last 6 sec?

Secondly, you're overestimating the range of judgement. You would have to be right under the boss to get your bonus, and this isnt always where you want to be. This is also the bigger downside of Long Arm.

This makes no sense. Nefarian adds don't require movespeed, but if anything,

The faster you move out of their range, the sooner the adds are going move and the less likely one is left in the fire. For maloriak, there is a lot of running to gather the adds, and judgement range isnt particularly great to claim them.

I agree, and said as much originally, perfect example of not needing movement...

My argument is that you won't find a clear winner between all 3 abilities like you're implying, not that movement is always going to be great or super meaningful.