Random Mists of Pandaria Discussion

[FailureMidgard]

The problem is that neither judgement or holy power are "on demand". If you were asking me to choose between a 40% speed boost every 10 second and 10% per holy power, there would be no argument. It is -not- the case however. Judgement isn't always up, and holding it is going to net a dps loss unless it coincidently happen at the same time momement are needed, but the same thing could be said about Holy power.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but based on the QQ about HoPo generation I've read, sitting on judgment cooldown is nowhere near as bad as wasting HoPo (for ret). For prot, you end up not using judgment on CD anyway due to procs...both specs put it as a last priority as far as I understand, thus, it's probably better to save it for the movespeed burst. Furthermore, it's not asking you to hold it forever, it's saying that you should hold it for 3-4 seconds at worst.

If you want to argue about the number Blizzard gave us, I would say that most players would favor judgement, but if the boost is dropped to 30%, or if holy power is increased to 15%/stacks, the outcome would probably be a lot more even in your average situation, and would tilt more easily in favor of one or the two depending of the fight.

If it's dropped to 30% and the HoPo shit is upped to 15% per stack, NOBODY would take the judgment one anymore. This is exactly my point. Put some numbers in and one will be better than the other. Period.

Why would you opt for a 4sec 40% boost when you can get a 60% that last 6 sec?

Because the difference on atramedes is meaningless. You want the initial lead from some movespeed bonus...after that, it's going to catch up to you (though honestly, you may be able to get a 2nd judgment in making it 40% for 8sec vs 60% for 6sec). When it is catching up to you, it's moving insanely fast (200% runspeed probably at least) and the difference between the 2 is going to be some .1 seconds...your gong guy should not be waiting this long anyway. Basically it comes down to "the faster one isn't enough better to make it worth the effort of switching" for the 1 time where you can reliably wait a minute between runspeed bursts...then again, there's also sidestepping discs, which in your world where it's really hard, having judgment up for those makes this a no brainer right?

Secondly, you're overestimating the range of judgement. You would have to be right under the boss to get your bonus, and this isnt always where you want to be. This is also the bigger downside of Long Arm.

30 yd range, since atm to get long arm you need that talent. Who knows what will change with Cata, but seeing as the entire point of the talent atm is to give rets a way to close faster from distance, I assume the range will be built into every tree (or if its not, it will at least be built into ret). All this does is change what's cookie cutter best. If it remains a 10 yd range for everyone, well, that changes all sorts of mechanics and you're right, this option becomes bad. No not bad, useless garbage that nobody will take. If it goes the way I'm assuming, it remains as I've stated. I really don't think that judgment will remain a 10yd range seeing as right now all 3 specs pick it up regularly?

The faster you move out of their range, the sooner the adds are going move and the less likely one is left in the fire. For maloriak, there is a lot of running to gather the adds, and judgement range isnt particularly great to claim them.

Judge the first one you pick up regardless of range, then run faster to the opposite side to pick up 2 and 3 or w/e. You can backpedal and dodge Nef fires so really no idea wtf you got that idea. Really, moving faster makes it more likely the mobs will "split" (where 1 kinda starts to move around you), then when nef targets the one further ahead, that's what causes 1 to get hit by the fire. If you backpedal it slowly, they will all stay in front of you clumped up and are less likely to get hit by fire. Only time you need to move fast is to move across Nef's face.

My argument is that you won't find a clear winner between all 3 abilities like you're implying, not that movement is always going to be great or super meaningful.

But you will. Some fights may have a niche use that will shoot 1 ahead, but that's the same as it is now. 1 option in every tier will be all around "better" for pve, 1 may be better all around for pvp (and hey, 1 may even be a counter to a popular class for a certain season making it chosen over the all around better one), but this is exactly how it is now. It's like I switch and spec Concussive Barrage for 1 fight in the game atm, and that's all my dualspec is used for. Still cookie cutter, and every other hunter does the exact same thing basically....

[Kaylia]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but based on the QQ about HoPo generation I've read, sitting on judgment cooldown is nowhere near as bad as wasting HoPo (for ret). For prot, you end up not using judgment on CD anyway due to procs...both specs put it as a last priority as far as I understand, thus, it's probably better to save it for the movespeed burst. Furthermore, it's not asking you to hold it forever, it's saying that you should hold it for 3-4 seconds at worst.

Yes, it's harmful to hold holy power, but I don't think you're going to want to hold on either of them if what you're trying to optimize is dps. Judgement is the 4th ability on your rotation, and with Hammer of wrath (proc isnt that common) and Exorcism (more common) in front, you're often sitting with nothing up. On prot, the only time where you will delay a judgement is when avenger shield proc twice back to back, but you won't see that very often (once every min or two something)

If it's dropped to 30% and the HoPo shit is upped to 15% per stack, NOBODY would take the judgment one anymore. This is exactly my point. Put some numbers in and one will be better than the other. Period.

I said one or the other, not both.

And seriously, I don't get your point. If you agree that there is a "turning point" between 40% and 30%. It shouldn't be that hard to balance. Try 35%, then 37% or 33% depending which way it go.


[edit]
And your theorycrafting for some of these bosses is ridiculous. Even if these behaviors were true, and they are not, there is no way to quantify them.


secondly, judgement is 10 yard. Your other ability are 30yard. I'm sure as hell not going to get in melee range of one add to run twice that distance at 40% speed after.

[FailureMidgard]

And your theorycrafting for some of these bosses is ridiculous. Even if these behaviors were true, and they are not, there is no way to quantify them.

Such as what? It's not theorycraft, it's having killed them and farmed them for a long time on multiple characters. I know your response to this is some people aren't perfect, but it's how it works. I'm curious what you think is ridiculous. The fact that when you move faster mobs don't stay grouped in front of you? The fact that atramedes breath in the air increases in speed as it follows you? You're the one who thought you could dodge Shannox's DoT, my bad for pointing out that you can't.

secondly, judgement is 10 yard. Your other ability are 30yard. I'm sure as hell not going to get in melee range of one add to run twice that distance at 40% speed after.

Ret judgment is 30 yard because it is talented for +20. Holy talents judgment range as well, and so does prot generally unless you feel you need Eye for an Eye. The entire purpose of Long Arm of the Law is to close on mobs faster from 30 away. (In fact, it's a requirement of Long Arm to have 30yd judgment?) I have no idea what you are arguing here, and it sounds like you must have Eye for an Eye as prot, which is pretty useless on all the fights you are mentioning. Basically, right now you already have that situational spec that varies from fight to fight (as much as the new talents will). Cool huh?

[Kaylia]

Such as what? It's not theorycraft, it's having killed them and farmed them for a long time on multiple characters. I know your response to this is some people aren't perfect, but it's how it works. I'm curious what you think is ridiculous. The fact that when you move faster mobs don't stay grouped in front of you? The fact that atramedes breath in the air increases in speed as it follows you? You're the one who thought you could dodge Shannox's DoT, my bad for pointing out that you can't.

Atramedes's breath: You said to use long arm twice, when the boost only matter near the end when its speeding up. That 6 sec is going to be better and give everyone more room.
Nef's adds: They are going to move around you regardless of the speed and distance you traveled. More likely? Prove it.

Arguing with you remind me of arguing with Max in the science thread. You constantly make up very specific scenario (real or not) that have no definitive answers most of the time, yet you insist they do and build your argument around them while forgetting some of the most basic stuff.


Secondly, don't you have something better to do in most fight than optimizing your speed around random mechanics (by random, I'm saying that an ability that is delayed by 2 seconds is going to fuck you up). Wouldn't it be better to just smooth out the movement speed curse, and focusing on other aspect of the fight that could probably be optimized as well?

Ret judgment is 30 yard because it is talented for +20

We were talking about tanking adds...

[FailureMidgard]

Atramedes's breath: You said to use long arm twice, when the boost only matter near the end when its speeding up. That 6 sec is going to be better and give everyone more room.

What? lol. Atramedes breath speed does not match yours. If you sprint at the start, you can stop in the corner and wait for it to catch up. It starts at X speed and gains Y speed per second. Any lead you get at the start is kept for the duration of it. So yes, you can move fast at the start, then use it again later? Though, if you run to the back of the room, you won't be w/in 30. In any case, it's funny you think I'm making mechanics up when you clearly have no grasp of them.

Nef's adds: They are going to move around you regardless of the speed and distance you traveled. More likely? Prove it.

Have you never once had to reposition a boss or multiple mobs? Did you never do Sartharion when he was relevant? When you move slowly, you can precision place mobs, when you move quickly they take all sorts of odd random pathing directions and end up on your side/etc/etc. I really don't know how you can claim to be a tank and have never noticed this, it happens in heroics all the time...

Secondly, don't you have something better to do in most fight than optimizing your speed around random mechanics (by random, I'm saying that an ability that is delayed by 2 seconds is going to fuck you up). Wouldn't it be better to just smooth out the movement speed curse, and focusing on other aspect of the fight that could probably be optimized as well?

Depends on the fight? Potentially yes...however, when you look at something like Baleroc, there's DPS lost to not being on target for X time, if you lower that by delaying your judgment 3 seconds, it may be a net DPS increase to not judgment because you spend more time on target. I'd go so far as to say it may be a DPS increase if you're at 3 HoPo to blow your HoPo, then use Crusader Strike, THEN move (assuming you will still make it in time) to get CS cd going. Toss a judgment in after the CS for runspeed and you have the best case scenario. You say I'm making up specific scenarios, but I'm not, I'm pointing out that you can optimize ALL scenarios. As a hunter on Baleroc, I make sure I'm low on focus every time Countdown is about to go out so I can fox/steady if I get it. This is optimizing, and is the difference between people that rank on fights and people that don't. A retadin should really never have 3 HoPo for runspeed with that talent, so you're looking at 20% max...if you're at 30%, you're probably doing it wrong as you're denying yourself your most important resource generation rather than your 4th or 5th filler ability...

Movement is a crucial part of optimizing damage, your deluding yourself if you think you should focus on optimizing damage while ignoring movement.

I'm not making up specific scenarios, I'm using specific scenarios to show examples or modeling of how stuff works. Movement these days is generally at pre-defined times and slow passive runspeed increases are largely negligible for anyone who has access to a short CD burst of movement. The classes that value slow passive runspeed are the ones specifically missing these large bursts (or lose the ability to function while under the effects of said bursts, aka resto druid).

We were talking about tanking adds...

Oh, then in that case you only have pursuit of justice so drop it. If you want to assume these new changes were real, it's probably good to assume that they function too. Judgment range will probably be 30yd base with MoP changes, as it has to be for Long Arm to work.

[Kaylia]

Oh, then in that case you only have pursuit of justice so drop it..

Are you insane? We are talking about the impact of picking one of the 3 abilities in MoP skilltree, it doesnt matter if I can't use it now. I said they were very situational, you said they were not.

I like some choice like pursuit of justice on paladin (1/2/3 holy power =10/20/30% speed, 1min CD for burst speed or judgement make you run faster for few sec. They are similar, yet, very situational.

And here I'm thinking as a Holy Paladin, you have 1 option. As a ret paladin Pursuit of Justice is just awful?
Really, I think Holy gets Speed of Light, Ret gets Long Arm of the Law, and prot...no idea, they all suck? I don't see how they are situational in the least..

This is how it started, and what we should try to demonstrate. You keep going on random tangeant that are absurd and irrelevant. I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore if you take MoP out of the argument...

If they increase judgement range for everyone, it will make pursuit better. However, it's stupid to pretend that abilities like this one can't be balanced around different scenario. It's also ridiculous to make an argument based on hypothetical changes. We arent trying to find out if X is going to be better than Y, we are trying to find out if these abilities can be balanced in such a way that you all 3 shine from fight to fights.

What? lol. Atramedes breath speed does not match yours. If you sprint at the start, you can stop in the corner and wait for it to catch up. It starts at X speed and gains Y speed per second.

Except for the part where you're not going to be running in a straigth line for the whole duration (beam will catch you up when you turn). If you do run in a straigth line, please explaine me how you judge it twice.

Have you never once had to reposition a boss or multiple mobs? Did you never do Sartharion when he was relevant? When you move slowly, you can precision place mobs, when you move quickly they take all sorts of odd random pathing directions and end up on your side/etc/etc. I really don't know how you can claim to be a tank and have never noticed this, it happens in heroics all the time...

It does happen, just not for the reason you listed. It can happen at short range just as much as it happens at long range.

[edit]
And I do have improved judgement, which i guess invalidate my point about maloriak adds claiming.

[bori]

Can we get Kaylia and Fail on vent together please? I'll grab the popcorn.

[Resin]

Man, Pally movement speed is serious business...

[Norellicus]

I'm still lol'ing at the fact that none of the actual design is even remotely finalized so there's no point in discussing it right now xD

[FailureMidgard]

I'm still lol'ing at the fact that none of the actual design is even remotely finalized so there's no point in discussing it right now xD

In which case you missed the entire point, which is quite lolworthy!

[Correction]

I'm mostly shaking my head at all the Atramedes/Nefarian discussion in the Mists of Pandaria Discussion Thread. You fucks will whip it out and measure it on any goddamn thread won't you?

[Meresgi]

I'm mostly shaking my head at all the Atramedes/Nefarian discussion in the Mists of Pandaria Discussion Thread. You fucks will whip it out and measure it on any goddamn thread won't you?

Nef came back once already, next time he'll be in a cyborg suit with an iron lung.

[Arvin]

i have the biggest e-dick, just sayin. so we can put this to rest

[Odon]

i have the biggest e-dick, just sayin. so we can put this to rest

I've touched it, it's true.

[Rhyis.]

So I'm looking at the new talents for druid... Yeah, none of these are useful at all. Pretty much all of them are for PvP. I don't want to pick any of them, let alone switch between different fights.

[aurik]

Druid talents are terrible right now and thank god they have a few months to iterate on them.

[FailureMidgard]

Someone in the internet put my Panda argument into an image!

[Kaylia]

It doesn't make the argument any less retarded. Nobody would have complained if all they did was adding a few panda npcs, they simply don't like that a whole expansion is going to focus on something cheesy.

[edit]
And you have to be crazy to bundle all these things together. Sure, they all fall in the "can be found in WoW" category, but that's pretty much where it ends.

[FailureMidgard]

So I'm looking at the new talents for druid... Yeah, none of these are useful at all. Pretty much all of them are for PvP. I don't want to pick any of them, let alone switch between different fights.

Druid talents are terrible right now and thank god they have a few months to iterate on them.

I don't understand this. Some tiers are lackluster maybe, but overall the tree doesn't look that bad to me?
15 tier is nothing special, but runspeed isn't bad for anyone, others seem like pvp talents, maybe some limited pve use to displacer beast if you can safely take a random teleport to remove DoTs on an encounter (would be interesting in FL if it removed Shannox's bleed or something).
30 tier seems all around solid, Desperate Prayer and NS are both fine.
45 tier is a letdown, but Typhoon isn't a bad option to have for any spec, has been quite useful in Cata so far.
60 tier looks good all around to me with potentially difficult choices (though doubtfully situational).
75 tier is another letdown, but Ursol's Vortex seems like it will be a pve staple to help with AoE. Demo Roar could have it's uses too, but seems unlikely.
90 tier is almost bad with the first 2 talents, kinda WTF at them wanting druids to actually be hybrids in combat (it won't work as well as they want it to). Heart of the Wild could still be good for Feral Tranqs, or Boomkins to use pre-combat to start in an eclipse or w/e. Regardless, disentanglement seems like a pretty good option for almost anyone, instant cast (while moving) self heal every 30 seconds has to have uses. Presumably it will let you shift Boomkin>Boomkin or Cat>cat like you can do Travel>Travel now to clear snares, and get this benefit, so it's just 1 GCD for a 20% heal. Not amazing, but it's not just a pvp talent, and again, can be done while moving.

Overall, I don't think the tree is that terrible though. What am I missing?

[FailureMidgard]

It doesn't make the argument any less retarded. Nobody would have complained if all they added was a few panda npcs, they simply don't like that a whole expansion is going to focus on something cheesy.

[edit]
And you have to be crazy to bundle all these things together. Sure, they all fall in the "can be found in WoW" category, but that's pretty much where it ends.

3 of those are PC races. I don't see how it's crazy to bundle them together, and the entire expansion is not focused on Pandas (that's just the argument being used by people who want to complain). It is taking place largely on their continent. There may even be some random quest to save a bamboo forest, but I highly doubt that the raid instance is going to be saving a bamboo forest so the pandas can eat it.