Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet.

[Valisk]

I would like to see you lay there and take a belt beating without flinching away or trying to protect yourself.

Should I make that reality check out to Acevalefor or Ace of Valefor? Plenty of children have received this type of punishment.

[Acevalefor]

Should I make that reality check out to Acevalefor or Ace of Valefor? Plenty of children have received this type of punishment.

I never said anything about "plenty of children" receiving that punishment. Go ahead and make your talking point though.

What was really said is that you will flinch and pull away from someone beating you with a belt. Which is what happened that caused her dad to threaten her and swing harder/more with the belt.

Protip: Just because plenty of children receive spankings with a belt does not make it right to hit your child with the buckle end multiple times for trying to get away from the abuse you are already giving.

[Valisk]

I didn't say it was right in my post (although I belive it is ok). You said "I would like to see you do this" and I'm giving you a reality check that I have and this happens. You made the statement as if no one goes thru this or would want to go thru this. I found it to be an invaluable tool in my upbringing and I disagree with your opinion of it. So it's not just a "talking point" it's my position on the subject.

What was really said is that you will flinch and pull away from someone beating you with a belt. Which is what happened that caused her dad to threaten her and swing harder/more with the belt.

And that's where you're wrong. She wasn't just "flinching", she was flat out refusing her punishment. You're downplaying it by saying she was flinching but she is clearly doing way more than just that. The dad never said don't flinch or I'm going to hit you more. He said lay across the bed and she chose not to. So your "without flinching away" remark is out of place and misused. I'm pretty sure he was swinging harder/more because of her flat out disobedience.

[Lucienne]

According to an article in a Swedish paper, every 5 hours a child dies in US due to abuse, neglect or violence. The number of children that have died in the last ten years is larger than the amount of soldiers that have fallen in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Physical punishment is completely reasonable.

[Valisk]

According to an article in a Swedish paper, every 5 hours a child dies in US due to abuse, neglect or violence. The number of children that have died in the last ten years is larger than the amount of soldiers that have fallen in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Physical punishment is completely reasonable.

Because advocates of physical discipline are totally encouraging punishment to the death.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...GCnvFXvsLFRKCw

[Lucienne]

Because advocates of physical discipline are totally encouraging punishment to the death.

Because setting lines of what is reasonable punishment and ensuring people follow them is really easy.

Why should all those reasonable people that only use their belts once a week be deprived their rights to discipline their kids just because some idiots cross the line, right.

[Valisk]

Because setting lines of what is reasonable punishment and ensuring people follow them is really easy.

Why should all those reasonable people that only use their belts once a week be deprived their rights to discipline their kids just because some idiots cross the line, right.

So because there is no universal standard on how to deal with this, you want to abolish it all together? If that's your stance then there's going to be a lot more changes than just spankings.

You say he crossed the line, I say he didn't do anything wrong. But you're better than me, right?

[Lucienne]

So because there is no universal standard on how to deal with this, you want to abolish it all together? If that's your stance then there's going to be a lot more changes than just spankings.

You say he crossed the line, I say he didn't do anything wrong. But you're better than me, right?

I live in a country where corporal punishment has been prohibited for decades. But hey, our crime rates are terrible and we're all awful human beings.

[Valisk]

I live in a country where corporal punishment has been prohibited for decades. But hey, our crime rates are terrible and we're all awful human beings.

And if you find where I claim that, let me know. You seem to be very confused. I'm not the one arguing that one way is better than the other. I never claimed NOT spanking your children is the wrong way to do things. If you take notice in this thread, it's basically people who feel physical punishment is wrong attacking those who are ok with it. Not the other way around and not both ways. If you don't want to spank your children, more power to you. If done properly, I think it's an invaluable tool to help raise children. Honestly the spanking in the video was pretty mild to me but that's just my perception. All those extra words you're trying to put in my mouth, stop it.

[Lucienne]

And if you find where I claim that, let me know. You seem to be very confused. I'm not the one arguing that one way is better than the other. I never claimed NOT spanking your children is the wrong way to do things. If you take notice in this thread, it's basically people who feel physical punishment is wrong attacking those who are ok with it. Not the other way around and not both ways. If you don't want to spank your children, more power to you. If done properly, I think it's an invaluable tool to help raise children. Honestly the spanking in the video was pretty mild to me but that's just my perception. All those extra words you're trying to put in my mouth, stop it.

I put words in your mouth about as much as I've stated that I am better than you.

There is a very simple reason for why people against spanking are the ones more verbal than other way. There is no need to protect children from not being spanked. They don't suffer any harm from that.

[Ksandra]

According to an article in a Swedish paper, every 5 hours a child dies in US due to abuse, neglect or violence.

problem with this statement is there is no breakdown between the thread. how many die from abuse? how many from neglect? as well as, if spanking is controlled then they shouldn't fall under this category anyways, so in many ways it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of what the judge did, but that is because of 1. her age 2. her muscle condition. I don't see anything wrong with controlled spanking at a young age though, so you'd have to show some kind of statistic about how often it gets out of control and leads to death for your statistic to have any meaning.


I have a feeling most of those children from what you list die from neglect. There are a lot of fucked up parents out there who don't feed their babies/drop them/do other stupid shit, that probably make that statistic so high. It is something that needs to be fixed, but you can't claim getting rid of spanking will stop neglect.

[Lucienne]

problem with this statement is there is no breakdown between the thread. how many die from abuse? how many from neglect? as well as, if spanking is controlled then they shouldn't fall under this category anyways, so in many ways it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of what the judge did, but that is because of 1. her age 2. her muscle condition. I don't see anything wrong with controlled spanking at a young age though, so you'd have to show some kind of statistic about how often it gets out of control and leads to death for your statistic to have any meaning.


I have a feeling most of those children from what you list die from neglect. There are a lot of fucked up parents out there who don't feed their babies/drop them/do other stupid shit, that probably make that statistic so high. It is something that needs to be fixed, but you can't claim getting rid of spanking will stop neglect.

Personally, I don't oppose moderate spanking in extreme situation. I got spanked when I let go off my mom, ran over the street and almost ended up getting hit by a car, i was 3 or 4, and I still remember it and obviously I never did it again. I think the problem is there is no way to decide what is reasonable corporal punishment, and the fact there are people even in this thread approving of the judges behavior is a clear indication of that. Even if you did limit corporal punishment by lets say saying three strikes with your hand, no tools used, there is no way to enforce that rule and control it. It's easier and safer for the children to remove it all together, as has been done in most parts of the civilized world. Imagine she was not his daughter, but just a random 16 year old girl.

[Valisk]

Even if you did limit corporal punishment by lets say saying three strikes with your hand, no tools used, there is no way to enforce that rule and control it. It's easier and safer for the children to remove it all together, as has been done in most parts of the civilized world.

People shouldn't be allowed to have children outside their financial means. Even if you limit child birth by lets say one child per $15K of disposable income, no welfare used, there is no way to enforce that rule and control it. It's easier and safer for the children to remove child birth from poor people all together, as has been done in most parts of my hopes and dreams.

Sounds silly right? Just because you disagree with the method and there's no way to enfore/control it, doesn't mean that it is grounds for termination all together. There are already things in place to spot, investigate, and prosecute child abuse(rs). Deep tissue bruising, open wounds, injury, etc.

Although there was so much talk of the statute of limitations being expired on this particular case, I think it would be hardpressed to find 12 "random" people on a jury who all view this as child abuse to get a conviction. Because people's perceptions, experiences, and viewpoints are so different (just look at this thread), I would be willing to bet that this ends as a hung jury every single time.

Imagine she was not his daughter, but just a random 16 year old girl.

Now you're changing the scenario all together. It's not illegal to spank your own children but it is illegal to spank someone else's without permission.

[Lucienne]

People shouldn't be allowed to have children outside their financial means. Even if you limit child birth by lets say one child per $15K of disposable income, no welfare used, there is no way to enforce that rule and control it. It's easier and safer for the children to remove child birth from poor people all together, as has been done in most parts of my hopes and dreams.

To be fair, some people shouldn't be allowed to have children really. Not saying it would be necessarily right to sterilize them. Wouldn't base it on income though.

Now you're changing the scenario all together. It's not illegal to spank your own children but it is illegal to spank someone else's without permission.

Not really. Children are people too. They are not someone's belongings or slaves. They are human beings.

[Ksandra]

Not really. Children are people too. They are not someone's belongings or slaves. They are human beings.

technically...they are someone's belongings..their parents until they are 18. Every law suggest "ownership". Of course, there are (and should be) protections to make sure that while parents own them, they take care of them properly. The thing is there are many methods to raise a kid "properly" and people probably until the end of time will debate which way is the best way. Which is why it would be silly to ban certain ways if they aren't doing serious harm (ie outside making the kid cry and get their bum a little sore), because it's almost impossible to prove one way is better than the other.

[noblemountain]

Children are just like any animal on earth, there's never a need for negative reinforcement. You can get the same results, with less psychological effects with positive reinforcement. Your child shouldn't fear you. I say this as someone who has children, was the victim of serious child abuse from multiple people, and is now a trainer of elephants who have been victim to abuse for 20-40 years. We train them for basic vet care (foot work, blood draws, etc), which in the past was a very negative experience for them, and it is amazing to see how great they do with positive reinforcement training.

[Elvis]

Oh, so you just get to decide what is and isn't a suitable punishment now?

Silentroy builds wooden rafts disguised as cardboard boxes. What have YOU done to prove you know the science??

[MaachaQ]

People shouldn't be allowed to have children outside their financial means. Even if you limit child birth by lets say one child per $15K of disposable income, no welfare used, there is no way to enforce that rule and control it. It's easier and safer for the children to remove child birth from poor people all together, as has been done in most parts of my hopes and dreams.

On one hand, Eugenics. On the other hand, Idiocracy. It's a very slippery slope for anyone to decide who should and who should not have children. Yes, there are quite a few people who are not fit to be parents and should never have children, but there is no way for anyone to enforce such a rule that would not raise red flags of racism, class warfare, etc. The best thing the world can do is educate the populace so they can make better decisions, and provide decent healthcare so women can seek birth control safely and not worry about their children dying from preventable diseases.