Regain Moonshade Earring: The Calculation Of Converted Store-TP

[Atoreis]

(which might be lower than 2%-- Does DA override Quad?)

I really try not to but I only see flaws in your posts like this one. You trying to make advance math and dont know basic facts.

What a point really in this? Ask yourself a question, where you will use SAM now that this calculation would be valid? Nowhere, unless you will do it just to prove your point.
VW has 2-12 regain, saveTP 20, TP from being hit.
80% haste with 437delay weapon is down to ~88 so below 1.5sec. That is possible 2 attacks rounds with just one tic of regain. Around 20% of the time your WS will yield 1TP extra from DA(possibleQA) proccing making your regain worthless. Summing all that makes regain next to impossible to calculate in any Xhit build for SAM.

[Diomer]

Not to fuel the fire, but I have the Regain earring and am too lazy to change it so I usually just make a build that will leave me 1 TP short of true 5 hit and assume that I'll get at least one Regain tic and that works pretty well for me. It actually makes a pretty nice Apoc 5 hit with no WS gear or food restrictions.

[Atoreis]

Not to fuel the fire, but I have the Regain earring and am too lazy to change it so I usually just make a build that will leave me 1 TP short of true 5 hit and assume that I'll get at least one Regain tic and that works pretty well for me. It actually makes a pretty nice Apoc 5 hit with no WS gear or food restrictions.

First of DRK is not a SAM second of I want to see what exactly you changed in you gear adding this regain earring.

[Taint]

First of DRK is not a SAM second of I want to see what exactly you changed in you gear adding this regain earring.

Reading his post I think he just using it because he has it. DRK definitely doesn't need regain moonshade, not quite to the extent that SAM doesn't though.

Redoing it shouldn't take long, just that one BC I think. If I was an Apoc only DRK the occationally does damage based on TP earring might be fun to play with.

[Atoreis]

Reading his post I think he just using it because he has it. DRK definitely doesn't need regain moonshade, not quite to the extent that SAM doesn't though.

Redoing it shouldn't take long, just that one BC I think. If I was an Apoc only DRK the occationally does damage based on TP earring might be fun to play with.

I asked several times and never got the answer how it works lol. I would assume +33% dmg at 100TP +66% at 200TP +100% at 300TP?

[dasva]

I beleive all that got tested was 300% and that it was like 5% chance to do +100%. But I could imagine doing it at certain specific tps would be a pain

[noodles355]

First of DRK is not a SAM second of I want to see what exactly you changed in you gear adding this regain earring.

Wasn't the point of the OP to try and quantify the Regain as an equivilent Store TP, using an Amano Sam as an example? If that was his intention, then what does it matter if the post you quote was about Drk instead of Sam?

(And before you accuse me of trying to blindly defend regain earring (because of previously posting about it), understand I don't have either version of it, nor am perticularly interested in either and have no bias for one over the other, any questions about it are looking for answers and justification, not trying to argue that regain is better.)

[Cairthenn]

Wasn't the point of the OP to try and quantify the Regain as an equivilent Store TP, using an Amano Sam as an example? If that was his intention, then what does it matter if the post you quote was about Drk instead of Sam?

(And before you accuse me of trying to blindly defend regain earring (because of previously posting about it), understand I don't have either version of it, nor am perticularly interested in either and have no bias for one over the other, any questions about it are looking for answers and justification, not trying to argue that regain is better.)

Because on the internet you have to be correct, regardless of which argument you are (not) fighting.

[Diomer]

Reading his post I think he just using it because he has it. DRK definitely doesn't need regain moonshade, not quite to the extent that SAM doesn't though.

Redoing it shouldn't take long, just that one BC I think. If I was an Apoc only DRK the occationally does damage based on TP earring might be fun to play with.

If I remember, Apoc DRK may not need it but it frees up the WS gear + food restrictions (I think in the Apoc 5 hit you use Taint, you WS in tyrant, which I wouldn't have to even though that isn't really a big bonus, but mineswell use it cause I have it like you said.) I haven't checked out my SAM gear for awhile since I never use it but I have moonshade in there too used the same way, although the last time I was looked at my SAM's gear was before it got another +5 STP trait.

[Atoreis]

Wasn't the point of the OP to try and quantify the Regain as an equivilent Store TP, using an Amano Sam as an example? If that was his intention, then what does it matter if the post you quote was about Drk instead of Sam?

(And before you accuse me of trying to blindly defend regain earring (because of previously posting about it), understand I don't have either version of it, nor am perticularly interested in either and have no bias for one over the other, any questions about it are looking for answers and justification, not trying to argue that regain is better.)

I feel corrected if that is the case I havent read whole wall of text from the first post and mostly assumed topic of discussion from next ones
Regain on 5 hit DRK maybe let you wear better ring for WS but you not wearing bale earring for TP?

[Diomer]

I feel corrected if that is the case I havent read whole wall of text from the first post and mostly assumed topic of discussion from next ones
Regain on 5 hit DRK maybe let you wear better ring for WS but you not wearing bale earring for TP?

Unless you have 3 ears... I don't ;(

[noodles355]

On other jobs, I think I mentioned that the regain can actually affect things for an OAT Drg - just to add other jobs so this isn't just an Amano-Sam topic. Whilst regain is much less reliable than other jobs as Jumps are instant and give 2x and 3x TP, just one tick of regain (which you will always get at least, I'm 99% positive) either means you don't need a dedicated STP neck piece or can afford to build around a 2/4 hit drakesbane instead of 3/4 hit (which will happen occasionally at 95%). Also, I'm not sure what the crit rate boost of Drakesbane is at 100/200/300TP (and thus how much TP+25 adds), but I'm not convinced it's anywhere near as high as Ukko's/Hi/Smite.

[VZX01]

Save TP:
No one gears a TP set for Save TP

CMIIW:
Save TP is WS gear business, not TP gear business.
Or It's me who doesn't understand what is Save TP?

Double Attack:
What is the chance that you get at least 1 double attack in 4 hits assuming 20% double attack? It is 40% (x=1-.8^4).
What is the chance that you somehow get two double attacks in 4 hits? 16%.
What is the chance you get three double attacks in 4 hits? 6.4%! If you assume that the earring is only Store TP +6, you are accounting for 93.6% of all your rallies! But this doesn't just stop here! If you include all of the variables below, you actually increase the rate to ABOVE 95%!

OK, I want to comment on this.

This is what I was trying to do 3 years ago about Soboro, but the thing is, it's not an easy high school permutation/combinatorics problem.


Let:
X: double attack
O : normal attack

When you have a case where:
X X O O
which should be valid case of 2 double attacks in 4 hit, you actually realize it as a 2-hit because you can (and for the sake of dealing the damage as fast as possible via crunching the TP out : should) unleash WS immediately after the 2 double attacks realized. This case should be reconsidered as 2 double attack in 2 hits

It's different when you have:
X O X O or
X O O X or
O X O X or
O O X X
These cases are no longer a "2 double attack in 4 hits" but they turn to be "2 double attacks in 3 hits", because by the time of 3rd swing done, you will have enough TP to unleash WS

And the valid practical case "2 double attack in 4 hits" is an empty set. Because we (implicitly) agree that we should unleash the WS as soon as our swing yield us >= 100 TP.

So what does it all comes down to? We need to work it via matrices where (I don't quite remember the matrix for probability stuff, but as far as I know) you need row and column elements mapped as "the chance of I can unleash a WS at n-hit?" and multiply it to column vector of "What's the chance my next attack does 1,2,3, or 4 hits?"

This redirecting problem is tedious back in 6-hit build day, but I could see it easier to be done now.
But I digress, I'm lazy to remap the cases.

[Taint]

On other jobs, I think I mentioned that the regain can actually affect things for an OAT Drg - just to add other jobs so this isn't just an Amano-Sam topic. Whilst regain is much less reliable than other jobs as Jumps are instant and give 2x and 3x TP, just one tick of regain (which you will always get at least, I'm 99% positive) either means you don't need a dedicated STP neck piece or can afford to build around a 2/4 hit drakesbane instead of 3/4 hit (which will happen occasionally at 95%). Also, I'm not sure what the crit rate boost of Drakesbane is at 100/200/300TP (and thus how much TP+25 adds), but I'm not convinced it's anywhere near as high as Ukko's/Hi/Smite.

I am sure there will be very isolated instances where you can make a case for a regain moonshade. The problem is those instances are so isolated you will be lacking a better earring for the rest of your jobs. (refresh or tp bonus) The second you can make use of the refresh or tp bonus earrings on any of your jobs is the second the regain earring doesn't make sense. Even the OPs math only works when using Kaiten, the second he chooses to use Gekko/Kasha etc for SC or damage purposes he should be using the TPbonus earring.

[Masamune]

Honestly, i don't even understand why used SAM as testing job, knowing SAM is by essence the one job who masters TPgain in all forms...

The OP would have gain more credibility if WAR DRG or DRK were used ?

but yea i interpreted that regain stat like a storeTP+X earring for my war to guarantee 5-hits Ukon from 0TP and 0 DA (which means on average a 4hits build).
I use also that regain ear in situations where i have to turn, like waiting on JA timers when farming on too weak dynamobs...
.. or also for testing stuff at exactly 100TP with meditate and Sekka

Personnally i felt regain ear more versatile than TP25, just personal taste

[Mojo]

If you're going to be generic then SAM is the best job to use as an example as their base TP gain/delay is better than all other jobs and they have good Store TP gear choices making it somewhat worst case scenario for Moonshade Earring. Really though, it's effects are going to differ based on many factors, there is no best example.

[Waku]

So um... if you're dnc you would still want to go with Regain+1 right?

[Masamune]

So um... if you're dnc you would still want to go with Regain+1 right?

This is the real question i think OP should try to answer.

Like Mojo pointed, SAM example makes for regain+1 stat WORST scenario, so worst that it makes neglectable to compare or even beaten by alternatives...
but i think it's not the case on other jobs than SAM.

[noodles355]

I am sure there will be very isolated instances where you can make a case for a regain moonshade. The problem is those instances are so isolated you will be lacking a better earring for the rest of your jobs. (refresh or tp bonus) The second you can make use of the refresh or tp bonus earrings on any of your jobs is the second the regain earring doesn't make sense. Even the OPs math only works when using Kaiten, the second he chooses to use Gekko/Kasha etc for SC or damage purposes he should be using the TPbonus earring.

Oh sure, I understand that. I might have mentioned earlier but I don't have either augment, would get the refresh one anyway, but am too lazy as I already idle with 11 tick on rdm >.>. It was just to point out one of those few circumstances.

No one has concidered it's dual purpose as a VW regain earring though, giving anywhere between 1-5 extra WSs for procs per VW fight (depending if fight lasts 5-25minutes). That, added to it being essentially a +2/+4 STP earring (for 1-2 ticks) and it doesn't read to me like a terrible option. If they released an Atk+4/STP+2, or Atk+4/STP+4 Earring, would you use it on any of your DD jobs? That's essentially what a regain moonshade is. An Atk+4/STP+4 earring that also adds regain when not meleeing in voidwatch. Hardly a bad decision, I'm sure many jobs could make use of a STP+4 earring.

[Kaisha]

Main purpose I'd find for the regain augment in VW is just being able to gain some TP while turned around if it's spamming, or you getting out of AoE range for a moment. Something to stack with Coercion basically.