Regain Moonshade Earring: The Calculation Of Converted Store-TP

[Byrthnoth]

So um... if you're dnc you would still want to go with Regain+1 right?

I'd say no. If you aren't engaged on Dancer, you should really be on a different job. If you are engaged, Regain +1 is an insignificant contribution to your TP gain (probably less than Suppa or Brutal).

[Taint]

Main purpose I'd find for the regain augment in VW is just being able to gain some TP while turned around if it's spamming, or you getting out of AoE range for a moment. Something to stack with Coercion basically.

Do people really have TP issues in VW? If procs go well the mob dies in 3minutes. Even when procs fail I've never had an issue spamming through WSs. 5tic regain, 20savetp, plus a COR is near perma 100tp.

[lolwut]

Do people really have TP issues in VW? If procs go well the mob dies in 3minutes. Even when procs fail I've never had an issue spamming through WSs. 5tic regain, 20savetp, plus a COR is near perma 100tp.

Agreed. To break it down a bit more, 3-5 tp/tic from Cor, 3 tp/tic from Monarch's, 2 from Coercion is a near full time 8-10 tp/tic. Discipline is 20 save tp, and Miser's is 11-25. Throw in Meditate on top of that for the vast majority of trigger jobs.

TP should be a non issue for any prepared VW group, I can't recall a time since completing my Atmacites that I've ever had a tp issue.

[Howie Roary]

this thread doesn't seem to make an argument for any job in favor of regain earrings versus the alternatives

it's my understanding that the ear sucks for 2h weapons and single handed weapons, which really only leaves h2h


motenten pointed out the rancor + moonshade regain/attack4 is best mnk tp combo yet I don't see anyone saying it's good even for mnk (or pup)

[kamugi]

Regain earring is awesome for voidwatch when you're just standing there waiting for a proc to happen.

[Taint]

Regain earring is awesome for voidwatch when you're just standing there waiting for a proc to happen.

No its not. Don't troll a troll thread please.

[Keichan]

First off, thank you for the feedback especially

V2X01: on the ways in which the calculation can be better. I will look into it!
Noodles355: for stating the correct intent of my post.

Concerning Masa/Mojo's question of "Why use SAM?"
SAM is indeed the worst case scenario because of the case of Double Attack + Zanshin and a multitude of gear options. But what I wanted to demonstrate here was that despite the supreme speed of SAM WS, you will almost always get at least 3 ticks of TP. Using this model, this "worst case scenario" would be much less on other jobs.

To demonstrate this even more, (because some people seem to be infatuated with voidwatch), during a Qilin zerg with the Tactician's roll and Misers Roll, I was able to parse the frequency of my WS to be 8 seconds. That means, even in the fastest zerg situation, you will still average 2 ticks of regain every time you WS. This "minimum" is what I define for other situations where the haste conditions are much less.

---Off Topic answers---

I have no doubts that voidwatch is the big fad these days and everyone wants to optimize gear for these battles. Even if you do mention these fast 5 minute zergs though, how much will Refresh +1 do for you considering the multitude of items, ballads, refresh, equipment? I wanted to point out that the goal of the thread isn't to state "which one is better" but more of "How do we categorize Regain" as a statistic.

--About me and why I asked the question in the first place
I enjoy doing dynamis as a 2 man set and I wanted to see how I would be able to push the limits on kill speed to maximize the amount of white proc and currency gain. I looked into the direction of regain earring as an option because it would allow more gear alternatives, allowing SAM to gain a larger pool of multi-strike. My thinking was that, if I was even able to kill 10 more mobs in the spam of 2 hours, this could lead to gains of over 250k profit. Thus, I looked into gear options that can push the 5 hit build so that it can attain maximum haste and double attack. The option that appeared to me was Regain earring and I realized that it was impossible to get less than a certain amount of TP inbetween each WS. And thus, I wanted to categorize this in terms of store TP in order to easier arrange gear.

[Taint]

--About me and why I asked the question in the first place
I enjoy doing dynamis as a 2 man set and I wanted to see how I would be able to push the limits on kill speed to maximize the amount of white proc and currency gain. I looked into the direction of regain earring as an option because it would allow more gear alternatives, allowing SAM to gain a larger pool of multi-strike. My thinking was that, if I was even able to kill 10 more mobs in the spam of 2 hours, this could lead to gains of over 250k profit. Thus, I looked into gear options that can push the 5 hit build so that it can attain maximum haste and double attack. The option that appeared to me was Regain earring and I realized that it was impossible to get less than a certain amount of TP inbetween each WS. And thus, I wanted to categorize this in terms of store TP in order to easier arrange gear.

Thats funny.

Do you really think on mobs that you have to proc that regain is netting you 10 extra kills an hour? Sell your Juogi+1, the real premise of this whole thread for you, and move on. There is no reason to ever bring a SAM to low man currency farming in the first place and it definitely doesn't add any value to your arguement.

[Keichan]

Thats funny.

Do you really think on mobs that you have to proc that regain is netting you 10 extra kills an hour? Sell your Juogi+1, the real premise of this whole thread for you, and move on. There is no reason to ever bring a SAM to low man currency farming in the first place and it definitely doesn't add any value to your arguement.

--off topic reply again for offtopic post---
I don't know what is up with the stick up your butt lol. It's a game and people play for different reasons. To each their own right?

Finally I'm happy to bring my SAM into Dynamis, it's my highest DD job that I enjoy playing, and this creates the best yields for me. It may not be the best overall combination, but I enjoy it a lot.

--Back on topic--

Store TP options for ear are nil, thus, I think its feasible to categorize it. Sure, the main reason for my first questioning was adding more multi-strike in gear, but I'm sure someone out there will have the same dilemma and would enjoy an extra option of Store TP.

And yes, I think that trying to constantly improve my gear set, even if it meant just 2-4 more double/quad attack by trading my ear slot out, I will do it. Somewhere out there, there might be another 2 hander will have the same question, and I think that this is an accurate way of looking at it.

If you'd like to contribute to my original question, maybe you can give me an answer on how much Regain an average 5 hitter will get before they hit 100 TP? By the way you are arguing, you are arguing that Regain +1 represents 0 TP gained most of the time, which is clearly not the case. The purpose that I want to show was that it can represent at least 2 ticks or 3 ticks of TP with high consistency. Until you can prove that you can never depend on at least 2 TP ticks of regain (equivalent to 4 Store TP), then there are many options that open up in terms of gear by using the ear slot (which would have been wasted slot anyway). This extends to all 2 handed jobs and not just SAM.

[Taint]

If you'd like to contribute to my original question, maybe you can give me an answer on how much Regain an average 5 hitter will get before they hit 100 TP? By the way you are arguing, you are arguing that Regain +1 represents 0 TP gained most of the time, which is clearly not the case. The purpose that I want to show was that it can represent at least 2 ticks or 3 ticks of TP with high consistency. Until you can prove that you can never depend on at least 2 TP ticks of regain (equivalent to 4 Store TP), then there are many options that open up in terms of gear by using the ear slot (which would have been wasted slot anyway). This extends to all 2 handed jobs and not just SAM.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't equate to some form of stp. I'm arguing its not needed for most jobs, its a variable amount and its benefit does not out perform other earring choices.

WARs 6hit and can do so with excellent TP gear and no sacrafices for stp. They 6hit over 5hit for obvious reasons. They also benefit from the TP bonus earring.

SAMs 5hit and benefit greatly from TPbonus earring. They also don't gain anything swapping to regain earring over the standard 5hit builds. Even with Amano you should have a TPbonus earring for when you use YGK and since the AM allows you to keep all the needed offensive gear with a 5hit. (sell your Juogi+1 lol)

DRKs with Scythe can 5hit/6hit without making sacrafices for stp. For GS you are going to 7hit and the major WSs scale with TP.

DRG - most can 5hit easy. A case was made for a the OAT lance but I don't know anyone with it. Drakes also benefits from TPbonus moonshade.

NIN,THF,DNC and anyone else DWing will use suppa/brutal.

PLD can go a number of different ways with their moonshade, so regain is an option. (if you don't have any of the above jobs.)

MNK can use a regain moonshade, a few MNKs of cerb swear by damage varies with TP moonshade but that one needs some testing for its true value. If the MNK has any job that can benefit from TPbonus then there are few other neck/earring combos that come close to rancor/moonshade, esp outside abyssea.

[noodles355]

DRG - most can 5hit easy. A case was made for a the OAT lance but I don't know anyone with it.

OAT Is the only lance that's worth 5hitting because it's got 508 Delay. Even then it requires a 3/4 hit Drakesbane everytime. It's not worth it with a normal 492 lance as it takes 48STP AND requires a 4/4 hit Drakesbane. Taking the Regain as a 4STP earring during TP phase, it makes 5hitting with OAT easier - it allows you to use Rancor Collar for TP and means you can still 5hit off the occasional 2hit Drakesbane.

[VZX01]

I'm not arguing that it doesn't equate to some form of stp. I'm arguing its not needed for most jobs, its a variable amount and its benefit does not out perform other earring choices.

WARs 6hit and can do so with excellent TP gear and no sacrafices for stp. They 6hit over 5hit for obvious reasons. They also benefit from the TP bonus earring.

In that sense, you should also categorize double, triple, and quadruple attack as variable amount of improvement.

Why? If you have 20% DA and 10 rounds of attack on the next mob you're going to fight, you can't guarantee it with high confidence you will get 2 out of 10 rounds get DA proc. But if you stretch it out over long period of fight time, the number will converge to 20%.
Why would you value the uncertainty of TP regain earring as a less prominent option for gaining TP than those DA/TA/QA?

A bit of off-topic:
The fact that the FFXI math people have always been interested doing in is (unfortunately) calculating the average. Without realizing there's a tons of high-in-noise randomizer being fed into the system, people are using that evil number as a base of the expected outcome with very high confidence level on a practical smaller scale (short fights). I think we probably should add more information to the audience such as Z-value and the shape of distribution in the future.

[Appie]

MNK can use a regain moonshade, a few MNKs of cerb swear by damage varies with TP moonshade but that one needs some testing for its true value. If the MNK has any job that can benefit from TPbonus then there are few other neck/earring combos that come close to rancor/moonshade, esp outside abyssea.

Like Howie Roary I'm sorta wondering how good the regain earring is now too for MNK and you saying this about the "dmg varies with TP moonshade" had me wondering: can this dmg actually proc on offhand, DA's, TA's and kicks? If it isn't fucked like Relic, Mythic and Emp H2H, could be fun seeing the add dmg spam (even at 5% proc rate?)

[Taint]

In that sense, you should also categorize double, triple, and quadruple attack as variable amount of improvement.

Why? If you have 20% DA and 10 rounds of attack on the next mob you're going to fight, you can't guarantee it with high confidence you will get 2 out of 10 rounds get DA proc. But if you stretch it out over long period of fight time, the number will converge to 20%.
Why would you value the uncertainty of TP regain earring as a less prominent option for gaining TP than those DA/TA/QA?

A bit of off-topic:
The fact that the FFXI math people have always been interested doing in is (unfortunately) calculating the average. Without realizing there's a tons of high-in-noise randomizer being fed into the system, people are using that evil number as a base of the expected outcome with very high confidence level on a practical smaller scale (short fights). I think we probably should add more information to the audience such as Z-value and the shape of distribution in the future.

Its 1tp per tic and its time based. Its not random, the random facts are the DA,TA,QA,haste,traits and JAs.

How many times have you seen a 2hander self SC just from haste buffs,DA,TA,QA? The answer is countless times, that means they are getting off 2 WSs in less then 5 seconds.

[Keichan]

I think we probably should add more information to the audience such as Z-value and the shape of distribution in the future.

You had finally put into words what I want to mean. Despite multi-strike rounds, there will be a distribution based on a semi bell-shaped curve on the probability you will get 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. ticks of regain before you WS. What the goal of the original post was that I wanted to show was that there will be a high probability that you will get at least 2-3 ticks in between before you will be able to WS again. There is a low probability that you will be able to skillchain just from haste and multi-strike alone-- but again,it's a low probability.

In the very least you can replace rose strap for +2 double attack or -3 weapon delay if it fits the build. But based on the consensus of the above posts above, it is probably safest to consider it as a Store TP+4 than the less conservative Store TP +6. But still, as noodles355 had mentioned, store TP+4 attack +4 earring still seems like an attractive item no matter how you look at it.

[Foldypaws]

OAT Is the only lance that's worth 5hitting because it's got 508 Delay. Even then it requires a 3/4 hit Drakesbane everytime. It's not worth it with a normal 492 lance as it takes 48STP AND requires a 4/4 hit Drakesbane. Taking the Regain as a 4STP earring during TP phase, it makes 5hitting with OAT easier - it allows you to use Rancor Collar for TP and means you can still 5hit off the occasional 2hit Drakesbane.

5 hit with 492 lance is beating any 6 hit I can find using Mot's new DRG spreadsheet, what's the 6 hit build that you'd recommend that you claim beats it?

And actually, the best 6 hit I can find (which still loses to a 5 hit by my calculations) still uses the Regain Moonshade. Adding the TP bonus moonshade doesn't add enough damage to WS to make up for the trades you have to make in TP gear.

[noodles355]

5 hit with 492 lance is beating any 6 hit I can find using Mot's new DRG spreadsheet, what's the 6 hit build that you'd recommend that you claim beats it?

And actually, the best 6 hit I can find (which still loses to a 5 hit by my calculations) still uses the Regain Moonshade. Adding the TP bonus moonshade doesn't add enough damage to WS to make up for the trades you have to make in TP gear.

What is the 5hit setup for Jump/TP/WS you're using for 492 delay?

Edit: Without STP magian lance.

[Foldypaws]

What is the 5hit setup for Jump/TP/WS you're using for 492 delay?

Edit: Without STP magian lance.

TP:

Weapon Langdebeve +3 (def down)
Grip Rose Grip
Ammo Hagneia Stone
Head Lancer +2
Neck Houyi
Earring Brutal
Earring Moonshade AttRg
Body Lancer +2
Hands Timarli
Ring Rajas
Ring Blitz
Back Atheling
Waist Goading
Legs Calmecac
Feet Lancer +2



spirit Jump:
Hagneia Stone
Lancer +2
Houyi
Brutal
Moonshade AttRg
Lancer +2
Lancer +2
Rajas
Vulcan
Atheling
Goading
Lancer +2
Lancer +2

Soul Jump:
Hagneia Stone
Lancer +2
Houyi
Brutal
Moonshade AttRg
Lancer +2
Lancer +2
Rajas
Tyrant
Atheling
Goading
Lancer +2
Ace's

WS:
Thew Bomblet
Twilight
Rancor Max
Brutal
Aesir
Lancer +2
Lancer +2
Rajas
Vulcan
Atheling
Pipilaka
Lancer +2
Hecatomb +1

The hecatomb +1 I have has +3 STR +2 polearm skill and +4 attack, though I don't expect that to make any difference wrt 5 hit vs 6 hit.

Edit: Mithra, /SAM, full str/pole/crit/jumps, and food = RCB.

[noodles355]

TP: 41STP - 18.3TP per hit.
WS: 34STP - 17.4TP per WS.

Drakesbane + 4/4 hits (each 3 extra hits giving 1TP *34STP = 4TP total) + 4 hits: 94.6TP

You would need regain to give you 6 ticks. Yeah... that's not a 5 hit.

[Foldypaws]

TP: 41STP - 18.3TP per hit.
WS: 34STP - 17.4TP per WS.

Drakesbane + 4/4 hits (each 3 extra hits giving 1TP *34STP = 4TP total) + 4 hits: 94.6TP

You would need regain to give you 6 ticks. Yeah... that's not a 5 hit.

That set has 46 sTP in TP. for 19.4/hit or 77.6 total. (99 after a 4 hit drakes), or 1 tic of regain necessary + 1 tic for each hit you miss

It's a 5 hit, I assure you.

(and 41 sTP is 18.7 a hit anyway, not 18.3)