Changes to Repairs (11/17/2011)

[TacoTaru]

The only reason dying in XIII was bad was because regardless of the status of two other players, the game failed instantly. It wasn't a "it feels bad because I lost," it was "this is stupid, I could have revived myself given the opportunity and easily won" more oft than not.

[Appie]

If you seriously think there should be no penalties for death then why even bother trying to stay alive.

Run up way-too-difficult mobs > sentinel/invig/etc > do as much damage as possible > die > raise/come back > repeat.

That seems like a jolly good way to make fights feel not only completely without risk but certainly void of any sense of difficulty or accomplishment.

If you die so much that repair costs/weakness timers are prohibitive you either really need to suck less, know your limits, or at the very least learn how to make money (as if repairs were even expensive).

Having to walk back to the spot where I am applying your tactic is enough incentive for me to try and not die so I am actually killing more (easy) shit than walking back a good portion of the time I am there. Not wasting the time of a mage trying to raise me over and over again if you insist on this method, is enough incentive for me to not try and die. Also being at the end of the hate list after dying as tank is enough incentive for me to try and not die. Alot of basic game mechanics already make a death annoying that you would rather avoid them. People who want to use this tedious method to level up, good for them. I rather not eat dirt 50% of the time and pick some more doable mobs.

[Hyan]

The only reason dying in XIII was bad was because regardless of the status of two other players, the game failed instantly. It wasn't a "it feels bad because I lost," it was "this is stupid, I could have revived myself given the opportunity and easily won" more oft than not.

I knew I should have clarified beyond "this goes for any game" because I knew someone would cling on to the irrelevant part. My example was bad, I admit, considering the huge negative bias towards that game.

In Bayonetta I was set back only a little everytime I died, as checkpoints were quite frequent, yet dying felt bad anyway and it had nothing to do with game design flaws. Do RTS games punish you for not clearing a single player mission beyond making you restart from the beginning instantly? They should probably make me do the earlier missions again because otherwise I don't feel like I'm being punished enough. In racing games I should downgrade to an older car if I fuck up a race.

ib4 "diffarent genres don't apply hurrdurrrderp". In MMORPG's everything is different I'm sure. For example the retries are rarely instant, people go AFK and over-all a fuck-up costs a lot of time regardless of game's design and DP.

Who gives a shit about leveling mobs?

[Appie]

Fair enough, should have mentioned BC style fights too, applies for them too.

[Niiro]

Losing the encounter is the penalty. What else do you need? XIII let you retry the encounter right there and then yet dying still felt bad and beating difficult fights like an accomplishment. That goes for any game.

It was? Cause to me it just felt like guessing a number between 1-10 but with an infinite number of guesses.

Losing in itself is bad enough. Losing repeatedly is even worse, especially if you can't retry immediately. You don't need to artificially kick the player in the nuts on top of that.

If you're losing that much there's a good chance you're simply not up to the task, unlike a single player game, in an mmo you're not meant to be able to do everything with just subtle alterations in strategy. If you're failing a given task so many times you're probably missing something critical (healer/tank/sleep/bind/etc) that you're not gonna get around by just trying again with the same materiel and hoping for the best.

If you're failing so many times that it feels like the game is indeed giving you a "kick in the nuts" it's probably time to accept defeat, cut your losses, re-evaluate your strategy, and try again another day.

I rather not eat dirt 50% of the time and pick some more doable mobs.

I think you just solved your own problem.

[Hyan]

It was? Cause to me it just felt like guessing a number between 1-10 but with an infinite number of guesses.

I never got "accidentally" killed, ever. I wasn't paying attention or had a shitty paradigm setup. It's easy to blame the game for being shitty player but aside from the last boss death bullshit (which, also is rather easily avoidable but requires some extra effort), by playing right your leader was never in danger. Stop acting like it's some goddamn dice roll you have absolutely no control over ever. It would have been better without it, but blaming all your fuck-ups on it like a pussy is dumb.

If you're losing that much there's a good chance you're simply not up to the task, unlike a single player game, in an mmo you're not meant to be able to do everything with just subtle alterations in strategy. If you're failing a given task so many times you're probably missing something critical (healer/tank/sleep/bind/etc) that you're not gonna get around by just trying again with the same materiel and hoping for the best.

If you're failing so many times that it feels like the game is indeed giving you a "kick in the nuts" it's probably time to accept defeat, cut your losses, re-evaluate your strategy, and try again another day.

I don't need to lose this magical "that much" times for it to feel like a punishment. Failing always feels bad on some level, period. I'm not sure what sort of an entity you are if that somehow doesn't apply to you. I guess it is always possible to blame something else and thus remove any personal involvement in what caused the failure, which you seem to be good at. Oh, but it's also even worse when somebody else fucks up and you lose/die because of him. What we need in that case is a death penalty so that you will surely feel like you were punished accordingly for something really not in your control.

If you're losing that much there's a good chance you're simply not up to the task

Instead of something completely out of your control making you lose like a dice roll when your party leader just happens to die out of nowhere? Yes, that could be the reason in very rare cases but let's not give up on finding something other than ourselves to blame either.

I can definitely see why you would need a DP to feel punished.

[Niiro]

Apparently I hit a nerve with the XIII comment, I was merely pointing out if you did something wrong you could just restart the fight and fix your paradigms/characters over and over until you found the most ideal combo with nary an exciting moment to be had. The risk of some kind of negative outcome of failure certainly adds to the enjoyment of success, the entertainment equivalent of "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

As far as your 2nd paragraph, yes failure feels "bad", it's also a learning experience and a motivator to plan and execute your strategy better. I just don't feel the need to cry about a speed bump on the road from failure -> learning -> success.

Also I don't know why you're going back to XIII again, other than the "guess a number" bit I was talking about XIV.

[Waraji]

Death penalty is very last decade. They should instead give staying alive bonuses. Like you know... getting gear and shit. :badun ch:

[Hyan]

I just don't feel the need to cry about a speed bump on the road from failure -> learning -> success.

I said it's useless, and it is useless, which doesn't mean anyone is crying about anything. I'm just pointing out the facts which doesn't seem to sit well with you.

It still has utility as a gilsink, although we'll see about that if the dark matters keep being as abundant as they are now.

[Charismatic]

FFXIII sucked and is irrelevant, stop talking about it here.

[Grey Jorildyn]

FFXIII sucked and is irrelevant, stop talking about it here.

Seconded!