Transgendered Changing Rooms

[Lucienne]

I'm sorry to repeat this again for everyone who has read the whole thread. I don't feel comfortable changing in front of people with penises, regardless of what gender they identify with. I am fine changing in front of post-op transgendered women. The gender they identify is not important to me.

You didn't answer my question.
How would you classify pre-op transgendered women?
As women or something else?

[archibaldcrane]

If a business wants to have that rule then so be it. I do not want to be in that situation and will remove myself from it. I do not wish to change my clothing in front of someone with a penis. It makes me uncomfortable. Therefore, I will not do it. Therefore, if a business has that rule I do not agree that I will be in that changing room changing my clothes.

So a gym, if they want your business, would have a better chance at getting your business if they barred pre-op transgendered people from the women's locker room, correct?

[aduidarnenye]

You didn't answer my question.
How would you classify pre-op transgendered women?
As women or something else?

I thought I clearly answered it? Gender classification is not important to me. I do not care if they classify themselves as women. They are free to do so. I'm not classifying them as males, if that is what you are trying to imply. I stated many times, so many times, that I was uncomfortable with pre-op transgendered women. Not post-op. My problem lies solely with the mechanics of genitalia.

[archibaldcrane]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of bigots like you, business owners have to choose between making money and not discriminating against some of the most already-marginalized people in society.

[Shade]

Refusing to classify something isn't a clear answer, that might be way people think that you haven't done so.

[aduidarnenye]

So a gym, if they want your business, would have a better chance at getting your business if they barred pre-op transgendered people from the women's locker room, correct?

Yes, of course. If they don't want to do that, they're welcome to open it up and just not have my business. I am allowed to choose businesses with rules I am comfortable with over businesses with rules I am not comfortable with, you do realise right? Did you believe I would go screaming and demanding and threatening lawsuits? No, I'd just go elsewhere to avoid that particular situation.

[aduidarnenye]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of bigots like you, business owners have to choose between making money and discriminating against some of the most already-marginalized people in society.

There we have it again. I'm uncomfortable with changing my clothing in front of someone, I'm willing to go someplace else to feel more comfortable, but I am still a bigot.

[Lucavi]

Goddamn women and their goddamn feelings. Its never about what a woman "does"; its always about what a woman "feels".

[Lucienne]

I thought I clearly answered it? Gender classification is not important to me. I do not care if they classify themselves as women. They are free to do so. I'm not classifying them as males, if that is what you are trying to imply. I stated many times, so many times, that I was uncomfortable with pre-op transgendered women. Not post-op. My problem lies solely with the mechanics of genitalia.

It does not matter what they, or anyone else classifies them as.
You still haven't once actually answered the question straight forward. Are they women or not to you?
Why this actually matters has nothing to do with your comfort or feelings.

To express it in simple words:
If pre-op transgendered women are women, they should use women's dressing room.

Women's dressing rooms are for women. If women dressing rooms exclude pre-op transgendered women, it means they are not women. What are they then?

[Ksandra]

I do attempt to reference and respond to every post directed to me. I apologise if my ability to do so is not up to your standards of speed.

having archi repeat something 20 times before you read it is slow indeed. Might explain your problem.

I do not see the word "unfair" anyplace in that particular question and I still have not seen it sufficiently answered.

you need to see the actual word "unfair" in a sentence to understand you are posing a question of unfairness? Or is this just more ing?

In my conversation earlier today I was told I should be forced to change in front of them (I believe I mentioned that earlier as well actually). Do you believe this to be the case or not? Do you believe that I am a bigot if I am uncomfortable with this and remove myself?

you are jumping around all over the place to try and make someone agree with you. This is far from where the convo has gone. Also, if you said it the way you told us about wanting a third private room, than I completely understand why people in your initial conversation would have considered you a bigot because you hadn't thought about the bathroom stall compromise. a third private room (AS YOU INITALY SAID IN YOUR EARLIER CONVO) is not the same as a bathroom stall.

You can not turn back time and be like "I WAS RIGHT" because you didn't fucking say stall in the first place.

I was personally under the belief that the entire thread was about how to hypothetically handle the hypothetical situation in real life. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I personally am under the belief that you keep changing your questions/answers to make yourself sound right while everyone has to keep repeating it over and over.

If you really believed this you would have stopped posing retarded questions after the bathroom stall gave you exactly the answer you're claiming in this sentence.

[aduidarnenye]

It does not matter what they, or anyone else classifies them as.
You still haven't once actually answered the question straight forward. Are they women or not to you?
Why this actually matter has nothing to do with your comfort or feelings.

To express it in simple words:
If pre-op transgendered women are women, they should use women's dressing room.

Women's dressing rooms are for women. If women dressing rooms exclude pre-op transgendered women, it means they are not women. What are they then?

I don't identify women based on their genitalia. I have stated so many times now that I am uncomfortable with changing in front of people who have penises, not "women who have penises" or "people with penises who are pretending to be women". I do not wish to change in front of someone with a penis, their gender is not an issue.

[Ksandra]

I don't identify women based on their genitalia. I have stated so many times now that I am uncomfortable with changing in front of people who have penises, not "women who have penises" or "people with penises who are pretending to be women". I do not wish to change in front of someone with a penis, their gender is not an issue.

are you trying to learn how to be a rick perry level of a politician?

Let's start from scratch...what color is grass? Let's see if you can give a straight answer.


As you are unable to give one to luci.

[archibaldcrane]

There we have it again. I'm uncomfortable with changing my clothing in front of someone, I'm willing to go someplace else to feel more comfortable, but I am still a bigot.

Yep. Yes you are. Because you won't treat them like any other woman.

[Lucienne]

I don't identify women based on their genitalia. I have stated so many times now that I am uncomfortable with changing in front of people who have penises, not "women who have penises" or "people with penises who are pretending to be women". I do not wish to change in front of someone with a penis, their gender is not an issue.

SO what you are saying is that pre-op transgender women are women?
Because you still haven't said it. I'm not sure you are aware of that fact.

[Pirian]

Yes, of course. If they don't want to do that, they're welcome to open it up and just not have my business.

Yes, you have that right, and it is what makes you a bigot.

I am allowed to choose businesses with rules I am comfortable with over businesses with rules I am not comfortable with, you do realise right?

Yes, but because of the reasons you chose to do so, you are a bigot. You may say that it isn't because they are transgender, but because what you are uncomfortable with, and uncompromising about, leads to the direct discrimination of a set of people, you are a bigot.

You are asking what have you said that makes you a bigot?

I am allowed to choose businesses with rules I am comfortable with over businesses with rules I am not comfortable with, you do realise right?

This is why! This is what makes you a bigot! I am being repetitive here for a reason!

Bigot
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

It sounds like you are being utterly intolerant I suppose I am too, but I'm only intolerant of your intolerance :D

[aduidarnenye]

having archi repeat something 20 times before you read it is slow indeed. Might explain your problem.

you need to see the actual word "unfair" in a sentence to understand you are posing a question of unfairness? Or is this just more ing?

you are jumping around all over the place to try and make someone agree with you. This is far from where the convo has gone. Also, if you said it the way you told us about wanting a third private room, than I completely understand why people in your initial conversation would have considered you a bigot because you hadn't thought about the bathroom stall compromise. a third private room (AS YOU INITALY SAID IN YOUR EARLIER CONVO) is not the same as a bathroom stall.

You can not turn back time and be like "I WAS RIGHT" because you didn't fucking say stall in the first place.

I personally am under the belief that you keep changing your questions/answers to make yourself sound right while everyone has to keep repeating it over and over.

If you really believed this you would have stopped posing retarded questions after the bathroom stall gave you exactly the answer you're claiming in this sentence.

Strange, I believed I was having a back and forth conversation with Archibaldcrane. I asked him some questions, he answered and asked me some questions, I responded to those, etc, etc. The fact that I have not changed my viewpoint does not mean that I did not respond to them, any more than him not changing his viewpoint does not mean he did not respond to my statements and questions.

The implication you made was that I was whinging about the situation ("Oh gosh this is sooooo UNFAIR to me!") when I was stating I was uncomfortable about the situation ("I find it unfair that I am in an uncomfortable situation I do not wish to be in without any warning.").

I don't care if you disagree with me or agree with me. I find the conversation fascinating and the differing viewpoints interesting. Feel free to disagree with me all you want.

It was actually just one person in my initial conversation and she labeled five of us bigots, but that's neither here nor there. I would prefer a third changing room option but am willing to accept the bathroom stall compromise, despite it not being ideal (I don't know anyone who would suggest that changing in a bathroom stall is ideal). I do seem to repeat this tidbit of information for you quite a bit.

I know I did not say stall in the first place. I recognise that my opinion on this particular point was adjusted during the course of the discussion. I've mentioned that before as well.

I keep asking additional questions and answering additional answers, not changing my questions and answers. I've adjusted as new information has been presented to me (re: bathroom stall) and I do not see how this is a bad thing or invalidates my entire argument (re: "I feel uncomfortable and don't want to be there", and "I'm not a bigot because I'm uncomfortable and don't want to be there").

I am capable of an ebb and flow conversation online and in real life, you know.

[Cleverness]

Is it possible to ban people from a specific forum, a petition of sorts. Cause I seriously can't remember the last time OP posted something here that didn't come out as completely fucking retarded. You do a disservice to all women on the internet by existing.

[Mojo]

Dressing like a woman does not make you a woman and neither does mutilating your genitals. There's no clear answer as to the original question. There will be both men and women who find the situation uncomfortable. Really though, unless you've been through some kind of traumatic event, being made uncomfortable by a rogue penis in a changing room is extremely childish. Grow up, deal with the world and learn to be tolerant. If you're that bothered by it, just wait until they are done, then go change.

[Kuya]

Eeek, a penis!

[aduidarnenye]

Yep. Yes you are. Because you won't treat them like any other woman.

Pre-op transgendered women are women but they are not like every other woman. They have different genitalia.

SO what you are saying is that pre-op transgender women are women?
Because you still haven't said it. I'm not sure you are aware of that fact.

I've said it many times. I'm not going to say it again because I've said it so many times that I'm starting to become annoyed.

Yes, you have that right, and it is what makes you a bigot.

Again, me removing myself from a situation that involves me being uncomfortable getting naked in front of someone else has turned me into a bigot. Yet forcing that person to remove their clothing in front of someone they are uncomfortable with is also bigotry.

differing creed, belief, or opinion

Since when did a penis become an opinion? I've never said they're not women.