Transgendered Changing Rooms

[Dimmauk]

Wasn't there a story about a women's gym that wouldn't let a pre op join?

[Ksandra]

I keep asking additional questions and answering additional answers, not changing my questions and answers. I've adjusted as new information has been presented to me (re: bathroom stall) and I do not see how this is a bad thing or invalidates my entire argument (re: "I feel uncomfortable and don't want to be there", and "I'm not a bigot because I'm uncomfortable and don't want to be there").

I am capable of an ebb and flow conversation online and in real life, you know.

the problem with your "ebb and flow" is you keep backpedaling back to earlier statements to try and make you sound right. this is not a good way to change a conversationg.

I don't think at this point you could do or say anything that would make anyone think you aren't being a bigot and/or cunt about the whole thing.

[aduidarnenye]

Wasn't there a story about a women's gym that wouldn't let a pre op join?

There was a story several years ago about a gym in Montreal (I think) that had to shut down because of a lawsuit from a pre-op transgendered woman who wanted to change in the female locker room but a large number of the female clientele were upset with it.

the problem with your "ebb and flow" is you keep backpedaling back to earlier statements to try and make you sound right. this is not a good way to change a conversationg. I don't think at this point you could do or say anything that would make anyone think you aren't being a bigot and/or cunt about the whole thing.

I've not changed anything except accept the compromise of a bathroom stall. You've changed an opinion on the internet! Be proud of yourself and pat yourself on the back instead of trying to harangue me for a shift in my argument. Your line of argument about my argument is getting silly.

[archibaldcrane]

Pre-op transgendered women are women but they are not like every other woman.

every other women? They're like some women, different from others. Some women have penises, some have vaginas. You don't treat all women the same - you discriminate against some women. The ones you discriminate against are the ones who are transgendered and have not had surgery. You acknowledge this discrimination, right?

[Ksandra]

black women are women but they are not like every other woman. They have different colored skin.

I see...

[Pirian]

Again, me removing myself from a situation that involves me being uncomfortable getting naked in front of someone else has turned me into a bigot. Yet forcing that person to remove their clothing in front of someone they are uncomfortable with is also bigotry.

No one is forcing anyone to remove their clothing in front of someone that they are uncomfortable with. STOP BRINGING THIS UP. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT AND IS DISTRACTING YOU FROM THE REASON OF WHY YOU ARE A BIGOT.

I will not repost it so that it is clear for you:

Yes, of course. If they don't want to do that, they're welcome to open it up and just not have my business.

Yes, you have that right, and it is what makes you a bigot.

I am allowed to choose businesses with rules I am comfortable with over businesses with rules I am not comfortable with, you do realise right?

Yes, but because of the reasons you chose to do so, you are a bigot. You may say that it isn't because they are transgender, but because what you are uncomfortable with, and uncompromising about, leads to the direct discrimination of a set of people, you are a bigot.

[archibaldcrane]

You actively, openly declare that you will discriminate against certain women, but you don't think you're bigoted.

What was that about irony again?

[Ksandra]

Again, me removing myself from a situation that involves me being uncomfortable getting naked in front of someone else has turned me into a bigot. Yet forcing that person to remove their clothing in front of someone they are uncomfortable with is also bigotry.

this is the type of backpedaling "fake ebb and flow" shit I'm talking about. We've already established no one is forced yet you keep bringing it up.

[Lucienne]

I've said it many times. I'm not going to say it again because I've said it so many times that I'm starting to become annoyed.

No, you keep dancing around it. Even now.
Feel free to quote yourself if I'm wrong. I'll gladly admit it.

Here's what I believe from what you said. I believe you do not consider them women at all. Everything you say about gender and genitalia is just politically correct bull shit that means absolutely nothing if your actions do not support it. If you consider someone a woman, it should not matter whether they have a penis or not, that is just a body part without any particular meaning, like a third arm.

If penis does not equal gender, there is no reason why it should bother you. Unless you have a good reason to be bothered by the presence of that particular body part that has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's gender. Like lets say you were tortured as a child by being fed bags of dicks.

[Kuya]

Like lets say you were tortured as a child by being fed bags of dicks.

lol

[aduidarnenye]

every other women? They're like some women, different from others. Some women have penises, some have vaginas. You don't treat all women the same - you discriminate against some women. The ones you discriminate against are the ones who are transgendered and have not had surgery. You acknowledge this discrimination, right?

Again, you are simply saying that I should stand there and be naked in a gym shower with someone with a penis while it makes me feel uncomfortable, ashamed, immoral (adjective, adjective, adjective) and if I remove myself from that situation and go someplace else (or if I change in a bathroom stall) I am being discriminatory? And yet, when the opposite happens (someone forcing a pre-op transgendered woman into a male room) they are also being discriminatory?

I am perfectly happy to partake in any female sports team with a pre-op transgendered woman and treat them like any other woman. I simply do not want to be viewed naked by someone of this nature. I am not denying the pre-op transgendered woman the right to use the facilities (a compromise was reached) nor am I denying them playing on a sports team with me.

black women are women but they are not like every other woman. They have different colored skin.

That's a ridiculous argument. Skin comes in a variety of shades. Where does black end and white begin? Where does Asian start? Penis and vagina are pretty easy to define.

[aduidarnenye]

No, you keep dancing around it. Even now.
Feel free to quote yourself if I'm wrong. I'll gladly admit it.

Here's what I believe from what you said. I believe you do not consider them women at all. Everything you say about gender and genitalia is just politically correct bull shit that means absolutely nothing if your actions do not support it. If you consider someone a woman, it should not matter whether they have a penis or not, that is just a body part without any particular meaning, like a third arm.

If penis does not equal gender, there is no reason why it should bother you. Unless you have a good reason to be bothered by the presence of that particular body part that has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's gender. Like lets say you were tortured as a child by being fed bags of dicks.

I said it in the post you were quoting me from! Good lord.

I do not equate gender and genitalia. I've made this quite clear multiple times. I think that is what you are doing. I do not want to change in front of a person with a penis. I am not concerned with what gender they are.

[Ksandra]

Again, you are simply saying that I should stand there and be naked in a gym shower

Show me where they or anyone said share a shower with someone....

That's a ridiculous argument. Skin comes in a variety of shades. Where does black end and white begin? Where does Asian start? Penis and vagina are pretty easy to define.

HOLY SHIT. are you saying if there was only white and black people it'd be ok to separate them since it would be obvious? Are you saying the only reason we should have equality with skin color is because there's so many shades? really? REALLY?


LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL LLl

[Ksandra]

I said it in the post you were quoting me from! Good lord.

I do not equate gender and genitalia. I've made this quite clear multiple times.

you do realize that wasn't her question right? So no you haven't answered it at all.

[archibaldcrane]

if I remove myself from that situation and go someplace else (or if I change in a bathroom stall) I am being discriminatory?

YES

[archibaldcrane]

You picked a characteristic and declared that that characteristic would cause you to choose differently. That is what discrimination is.

[Pirian]

When your opinion leads to the discrimination of a subset of society then you are a bigot.

Let me lay it out for you in this way.

Things you have said:
You do not want to change in front of someone with a penis, be it from a transgender person or a male.

Implication:
You are body-shy, and this is fine because you stated you would be fine with moving yourself to a stall or shower in order to change. THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE, SO STOP BRINGING IT UP.

What you said:
You will not do business at places that allows anybody with a penis to change in the female changing rooms.

Implications:
Because pre-op transgender's have penises, unless a business discriminates on gender lines in regards to changing rooms then you will not do business with them. YOU CANNOT CALL YOURSELF A NON-BIGOT WHEN YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THIS. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE NOT DIRECTLY DOING THE DISCRIMINATION, YOU ARE SUPPORTING IT, AND ARE THEREFORE JUST AS GUILTY AS THE PERPETRATOR


I honestly hope this clears it up for you.

[aduidarnenye]

Show me where they or anyone said share a shower with someone....

HOLY SHIT. are you saying if there was only white and black people it'd be ok to separate them since it would be obvious? Are you saying the only reason we should have equality with skin color is because there's so many shades? really? REALLY? LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL LLl

Yes, Ksandra, that's EXACTLY what I said. You are quoting me word for word. There's no way I suggested that skin colour is meaningless because it's undefinable. None at all. I am caught out. I shall go sit in a corner.

you do realize that wasn't her question right? So no you haven't answered it at all.

I do not judge people's gender by their genitalia. I do not consider everyone with a penis to be male. I do not consider everyone with a vagina to be female. I've pointed these particular points out ad nauseum. I've also never referred to a pre-op transgendered woman as anything but a woman, even down to using the proper pronouns. I've been very careful in the labels I have used. I've only pointed out the difference in genitalia.

[aduidarnenye]

You picked a characteristic and declared that that characteristic would cause you to choose differently. That is what discrimination is.

Oh dear, I picked a blue car to buy instead of a red car. I discriminate against red cars. Oh dear, I chose to play hockey instead of baseball. I discriminate against baseball. Oh dear, I married a man instead of a woman. I discriminate against women. Oh dear, I use the women's bathroom instead of the men's bathroom. I discriminate against men. Oh dear, I chose a Japanese student as student of the month instead of a Saudi student. I discriminate against Saudi students.

[Lucienne]

I said it in the post you were quoting me from! Good lord.

Pre-op transgendered women are women but they are not like every other woman. They have different genitalia.

How is that saying they are women?
You are clearly stating that they are different.

I do not equate gender and genitalia. I've made this quite clear multiple times. I think that is what you are doing. I do not want to change in front of a person with a penis. I am not concerned with what gender they are.

You have written it multiple times, yes. Yet, you seem to place whole lot of a value in that little ding dong of theirs to make it a believable point.