Transgendered Changing Rooms

[Ksandra]

Yes, Ksandra, that's EXACTLY what I said. You are quoting me word for word. There's no way I suggested that skin colour is meaningless because it's undefinable. None at all. I am caught out. I shall go sit in a corner.

Actually, you're just agreeing with my statement. What if color WAS definable? Ie. lets say there was only black and white people. Then it has meaning?


hint: it doesn't you dumbass because color doesn't define a person which is why it's meaningless, NOT because there's a fuckton of shades you numbnuts.

equally, just because dicks and vags are obvious doesn't mean they have a special meaning either.

I do not judge people's gender by their genitalia. I do not consider everyone with a penis to be male. I do not consider everyone with a vagina to be female. I've pointed these particular points out ad nauseum. I've also never referred to a pre-op transgendered woman as anything but a woman, even down to using the proper pronouns. I've been very careful in the labels I have used. I've only pointed out the difference in genitalia.

she asked a simple yes or no answer and you keep going on about irrelevant stuff to her question rather just saying YES OR NO.

[aduidarnenye]

Unless a business discriminates on gender lines in regards to changing rooms then you will not do business with them. YOU CANNOT CALL YOURSELF A NON-BIGOT WHEN YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THIS. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE NOT DIRECTLY DOING THE DISCRIMINATION, YOU ARE SUPPORTING IT, AND ARE THEREFORE JUST AS GUILTY AS THE PERPETRATOR

Well, I was called a bigot multiple times in this thread before I made that particular statement, but that is neither here nor there.

Should I go take my gym business to a weightlifting gym full of huge, sweaty guys? Perhaps I feel uncomfortable in that kind of environment. That gym shouldn't allow big sweaty weightlifters! Or I should go someplace else? I should probably go someplace else.

[Cleverness]

Oh dear, I picked a blue car to buy instead of a red car. I discriminate against red cars. Oh dear, I chose to play hockey instead of baseball. I discriminate against baseball. Oh dear, I married a man instead of a woman. I discriminate against women. Oh dear, I use the women's bathroom instead of the men's bathroom. I discriminate against men. Oh dear, I chose a Japanese student as student of the month instead of a Saudi student. I discriminate against Saudi students.

You are so fucking stupid if you think this is the same thing. Choosing a blue car instead of a red car isn't the same thing as saying you don't like the red car cause you don't like that it can see you and think it should be sold at a car lot you are not at, which is similar to the entire argument you've been making this entire time.

Seriously, get off the internet.

[Pirian]

Oh dear, I picked a blue car to buy instead of a red car. I discriminate against red cars. Oh dear, I chose to play hockey instead of baseball. I discriminate against baseball. Oh dear, I married a man instead of a woman. I discriminate against women. Oh dear, I use the women's bathroom instead of the men's bathroom. I discriminate against men. Oh dear, I chose a Japanese student as student of the month instead of a Saudi student. I discriminate against Saudi students.

If you can make these statements and not see the irony between you trying to call Ksandra on the skin color comment, then there is no hope.

[aduidarnenye]

Actually, you're just agreeing with my statement. What if color WAS definable? Ie. lets say there was only black and white people. Then it has meaning?

hint: it doesn't you dumbass because color doesn't define a person which is why it's meaningless, NOT because there's a fuckton of shades you numbnuts.

she asked a simple yes or no answer and you keep going on about irrelevant stuff to her question rather just saying YES OR NO.

It's not definable therefore your supposition is ridiculous and not worth answering. I quite obviously did not say what you are suggesting. Who is twisting words now?

I did not feel a simple yes or no was necessary as I stated it several times throughout the thread and yet she kept asking me the same question. Didn't you accuse me of not acknowledging someone's point earlier?

[Ksandra]

Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group.

She probably won't get it, but figured I'd try.

[aduidarnenye]

You are so fucking stupid if you think this is the same thing. Choosing a blue car instead of a red car isn't the same thing as saying you don't like the red car cause you don't like that it can see you and think it should be sold at a car lot you are not at, which is similar to the entire argument you've been making this entire time.

Seriously, get off the internet.

My point is that those statements are ridiculous, not that they are true. I must do business at a gym that allows pre-op transgendered women in the changing room or I am bigot. I am discriminating in my choice of gym, not discriminating against pre-op transgender women.

She probably won't get it, but figured I'd try.

I am excluding or restricting the members of a certain group from viewing my naked body. I am not excluding or restricting them from a gym. I am excluding or restricting myself.

[Ksandra]

It's not definable therefore your supposition is ridiculous and not worth answering. I quite obviously did not say what you are suggesting. Who is twisting words now?

so basically, the hypothetical situation shows how you are being a bigot, therefore you don't want to answer it. You obviously did state that colors of skin are meaningless because they have multiple shades. This is not at all why skin color is meaningless.

I did not feel a simple yes or no was necessary as I stated it several times throughout the thread and yet she kept asking me the same question. Didn't you accuse me of not acknowledging someone's point earlier?

no you give vague answers and keep adding extra info that has NOTHING to do with the question. You, again, are acting like a brat refusing to just say yes or no.

[Jeryhn]

Oh dear, I picked a blue car to buy instead of a red car. I discriminate against red cars.

No, you chose a blue car. However, if you didn't choose a blue car because it was once or you thought it was once a red car, then yes, you discriminate against red cars.

You see where the difference lies yet?

PS: I cannot believe I am lowering myself to your shitty analogy in an effort to properly explain this to you.

[Ksandra]

I must do business at a gym that allows pre-op transgendered women in the changing room or I am bigot.

yes?


You, I think, are so desperate to not get labelled a bigot without understanding that no matter if you don't like it THIS DOES MAKE YOU ONE.


I'm a fatass, I'd rather not get called one, but I'd be an idiot to shout "I'M NOT FAT" in attempts to get people to not say I am. Even if it's pretty fucking obvious.

As long as you refuse to go to a business that allows transgenders in the locker room you are a bigot. You are following the definition of a bigot. You can't just get around it by saying "but but penises are scary!"

[aduidarnenye]

so basically, the hypothetical situation shows how you are being a bigot, therefore you don't want to answer it. You obviously did state that colors of skin are meaningless because they have multiple shades. This is not at all why skin color is meaningless.

no you give vague answers and keep adding extra info that has NOTHING to do with the question. You, again, are acting like a brat refusing to just say yes or no.

You do like to beat a point into the ground, do you not? Well, since it seems to be the only thing to make you happy at this point...

Skin colour is not important, hence we do not segregate people by skin colour. Genitalia is important, hence we segregate people by genitalia type. You must admit we, as a society, as do most societies to some degree or another, segregate male and female bathrooms by penis and vagina.

Pre-op transgendered women are women. They differ in that they have a penis but they are still women.

What was your point?

[Lucienne]

Skin colour is not important, hence we do not segregate people by skin colour. Genitalia is important, hence we segregate people by genitalia type. You must admit we, as a society, as do most societies to some degree or another, segregate male and female bathrooms by penis and vagina.

Pre-op transgendered women are women. They differ in that they have a penis but they are still women.

Are you serious?

[aduidarnenye]

As long as you refuse to go to a business that allows transgenders in the locker room you are a bigot. You are following the definition of a bigot. You can't just get around it by saying "but but penises are scary!"

I believe it was you, but perhaps it was someone else (it is difficult to remember at this point), who stated that no one was calling me a bigot if I took steps to not use the same changing room as a pre-op transgendered woman due to discomfort. Thank you for proving my point.

[Pirian]

Should I go take my gym business to a weightlifting gym full of huge, sweaty guys? Perhaps I feel uncomfortable in that kind of environment. That gym shouldn't allow big sweaty weightlifters! Or I should go someplace else? I should probably go someplace else.

It is not THAT you are taking your business elsewhere, it is WHY you are taking your business elsewhere. Let me restate this for you even though it is the exact thing that you quoted, because you clearly didn't get the implications of it:

Because pre-op transgender's have penises, unless a business discriminates on gender lines in regards to changing rooms then you will not do business with them. YOU CANNOT CALL YOURSELF A NON-BIGOT WHEN YOU MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THIS. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE NOT DIRECTLY DOING THE DISCRIMINATION, YOU ARE SUPPORTING IT, AND ARE THEREFORE JUST AS GUILTY AS THE PERPETRATOR

It isn't THAT you are taking your business elsewhere, it is the REASON you are taking your business elsewhere. The REASON is because they allow pre-op transgenders into the changing rooms. It doesn't matter that you don't have a problem with pre-op transgenders, and it is simply that you are uncomfortable with the penis. You are still basing your decision off it, and are thus encouraging businesses to discriminate. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST BIG SWEATY BODY BUILDERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AN ALREADY OPPRESSED SECTION OF THE POPULATION. But yes, it would still be discrimination, and not liking it, and thinking it is stupid, doesn't change that fact -- I'm sorry.

[aduidarnenye]

Are you serious?

Do you not have male and female bathrooms in Europe? It's been about 7 or 8 years since I was last in Europe but I am sure I remember there being female and male washrooms. Female washrooms didn't have urinals if I recall correctly as well.

[warc]

Are you serious?

Are there urinals in women's bathrooms?

[Jeryhn]

Genitalia is important, hence we segregate people by genitalia type.

Nope, looks like we're done here.

[Ksandra]

Skin colour is not important, hence we do not segregate people by skin colour. Genitalia is important, hence we segregate people by genitalia type. You must admit we, as a society, as do most societies to some degree or another, segregate male and female bathrooms by penis and vagina.

at one point society thought color was important. Surprise! times are changing.

Pre-op transgendered women are women. They differ in that they have a penis but they are still women.

What was your point?

so then they should be able to go in the woman's locker room, AND if you take issue with it to the point you don't do business with the gym because they allow women in the women's locker room, you are then in the definition of a bigot whether you want to be or not.

[Ksandra]

I believe it was you, but perhaps it was someone else (it is difficult to remember at this point), who stated that no one was calling me a bigot if I took steps to not use the same changing room as a pre-op transgendered woman due to discomfort. Thank you for proving my point.

no I said you weren't a bigot if you used the bathroom stall because of being afraid of the penis. Refusing to do business with a company because of their stance on transgender IS bigotry.

[aduidarnenye]

It isn't THAT you are taking your business elsewhere, it is the REASON you are taking your business elsewhere. The REASON is because they allow pre-op transgenders into the changing rooms. It doesn't matter that you don't have a problem with pre-op transgenders, and it is simply that you are uncomfortable with the penis. You are still basing your decision off it, and are thus encouraging businesses to discriminate. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST BIG SWEATY BODY BUILDERS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AN ALREADY OPPRESSED SECTION OF THE POPULATION.

Your last statement is interesting. I don't feel comfortable in a gym full of big sweaty bodybuilders so I go elsewhere but it's not discriminating because they're not oppressed. A pre-op transgendered woman doesn't feel comfortable changing in a male changing room so she goes elsewhere, but that's not discrimination because they are oppressed. I don't feel comfortable changing in a room with a pre-op transgendered woman so I go elsewhere but that is discriminating, because I am oppressing the right of pre-op transgendered women from being naked with me and seeing my naked body (and yes, I'm not talking about sexual desire here). I find the intricacies of your argument to be fascinating.