Degree question: Opinions

[Meresgi]

Figured I would post it here instead of General as it has a lot more to do with technology and computers. I just finished my 1st semester for this program:

http://www.howardcc.edu/academics/pr...echnology.html

Electronics Tech. basically gets you ready to sit the A+ and Cisco tests and all that, but a lot of people in my class were in this program:

http://www.howardcc.edu/academics/pr..._security.html

Network security: It seems to be a big thing right now, but I have NO plans on transferring to a 4yr school after im done with this Associates, i've spent too much time and money on college, and I went into the Multimedia degree frenzy at the rear end and came out w/ 0 job opportunities and jack all to do.

So opinions on these 2 degrees? As it isn't too late to change I dont think. Do people think that Network Security 2yr would be enough to get into the workplace or are employers only looking for 4yr degrees with (x) amount of years experience.

Basically I want to make sure I have a good enough footing when I get done to start at any level in a corporation or even freelance, self employed and don't want to shoot myself in the foot and wish I had taken the other degree.

I've talked to the advisors but they are pretty much clueless like most I have spoken to at colleges.

[SephYuyX]

To state as simply as possible:

4yr > 2yr
You could take a 4yr "I suck cpu cocks" vs a 2yr "Business intergrated computer and network engineering", and youd have a better chance with the 4yr.

But this depends on where you want a job at, and what position.
If youre happy with being low man on the pole getting paid shit in a crappy company, go for the 2yr.
If you want the chance to rise in rank in a big company, go for 4.

Obviously this isnt always true. There are some really big people who didnt go to college and just went with certs
And really doesnt matter because you will learn nothing pertinent to your job at school.

If you want the best chance in the real world: Go do a 4yr BA (at minimum) with something that involves both business and IT, get in to co-ops, and take certs. Learn everything you can during your co-ops, and springboard in to the big companies.


Edit:
To answer your which program question..
They both suck, but the 4yr one is better.

The two year will get you a job at a call center doing helpdesk bullshit, with maybe years down the road getting in to a higher spot.
The four year will get you a higher helpdesk bullshit that job that has nothing to do with network security (net security is built in to every IT job, good luck getting in to the company that hires a sole net sec guy, as they will be the multibillion dollar kind).

However the four year has more business application than the 2yr, so you have a better chance to rise.
But again, depends what job you want..

Youre better off just going through Cisco, MS and CompTIA certs than a 2yr.

And how have you spent too much time and money lol?
I spent 10 years in college (have one AS, and two BA while working my way through it, meaning no debt) and I make as much money as I spent for my college tut in under a half year of "real" work.

You get out as much as you put in.

Sometimes..

[Meresgi]

Eh I feel like being 38k in the hole for college is too much, that and since im getting married soon I have no time to devote to a full 4yr program when im going to need to be working full time just to afford a house and pay off my debts as is. That isnt to say I WONT go back for a 4yr program in the future though, probably just not for a year after I get done with this 2 year. But from what I can gather you're saying the Net Security into a 4yr looks a lot better then Electronics Technology.

I will be sitting for A+, Cisco, and most other certs after I finish the 2 year stuff up, even though from what ive heard/read the A+ is worthless so im not sure if the cost is even worth it on that one. Ill have to research it more and what employers are looking for.

My only real college options are anything in Maryland around Columbia because i'm not making a large move with my fiance when we're scrapping by on the money situation.

[SephYuyX]

A+ is the basic of the basic.

If youre planning to jump from a 2yr to a 4yr, then you should weigh your options of how much time you want to spend back in school, vs how much money you want to spend:
2>4 faster/expensive route.
2>4 cheaper/slower route.

Faster/cheaper route is that you get your AS after 2 years, and then your BA after another 2 or 2.5, this is if you do it at the same non community college.
Cheaper/slower route is that you get your AS after 2 years at a community college (at like 10% the cost), and then your BA at a non community college after another 2.5 or 3 years (creidt bs).

Giving school / career advice is a lot like giving XI advice, it's all situational.

The best experiance you will get is from real jobs, real jobs will always weigh more than school when it comes to IT (as long as you dont mind being below a manager position). If you plan on wanting to go higher, or want a job at a large and profitable enterprise, then you have to go to school. But again, if that person who has no schooling shows awesome abilities, and interviews with the right people, hes a shoe in.

[Meresgi]

Would you say to go for A+ or not even bother since it's not worth the cost? Just wondering from someone who's in IT professionally. I plan when I finish this 2yr to start up self employed computer repair or something basic like Geek Squad (hurray diamond hdmi cables) and work while going back for my 4yr degree and taking 3 years probably to get it with a full time job + starting a family. The area I live in is really wealthy with tons of people who don't do any sort of service work in terms of fixing their own computers, their own homes, even cleaning their own gutters or mowing their own lawns so there's money to be made.

[Cephius]

A+ is bullshit, so is any "network security" course. They're not worth the paper they're printed on unless you want to go for a job where you change printer toner and explain people how to graph stuff in Excel.

Honestly these days, get your foot in the door with an internship or something and work your way up. Most companies value experience over any sort of degree or cert until you get into the higher tiers. If you'd rather skip that and go right into a high end infrastructure job (network engineer or such) then go get Cisco and Microsoft certified and know your way around unix systems. In the end though it pretty much balances out in terms of the money you put in and what you get out. Just don't waste your time on meaningless certifications or by getting a BA from a stupid tech school.

EDIT: also unless you're at a huge corporation that has clusters of enterprise servers you'll probably be expected to specialize in more than one thing so it helps if you have a decent base knowledge in a bunch of systems.

[SephYuyX]

Depends.. I dont recall it being very expensive, so it certainly doesnt hurt, just dont brag about it unless you have more to go along with it.
I personally never did A+, the only real cert ive ever done was MCSE.

I did the computer repair tech thing too as one of the jobs I did throughout college. Its pretty easy to do as long as you can spread the word. I charged 60$ an hour flat (cheaper than geek squad or any other place) for any service and never had any issues.

[SephYuyX]

PS.
Learn about VMware and NetApp.
Plus all the MS stuff: IIS, AD, DC, FTP, SQL, NLB, DHCP, DNS, HyperV, TS, WSUS, WDT, etcetcetc

[Meresgi]

Yeah im not making the mistake of doing tech school again, went to one for media arts, bunch of bullshit. I'll def look into those things Seph, Ive done some SQL but really need to get more into it. Thanks for the pointers also.

[Dmitry]

I went to a 2 year scam school, and got hired at my current job a few weeks after graduating. While it's better than nothing, I got put on 3rd shift help desk about 2 years ago and have jack shit for opportunities here. The only problem is trying to find a job in IT in my area.

As for certs, they hold some value, and are good for resume padding as it will give you an edge over someone who may not have it, but experience is always the best thing.

[Kohan]

Here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the US:

http://www.askmen.com/money/career_150/177_career.html

Number #8 is "Computer and Information Systems Manager," requiring a four year degree, and usually starting at about $100,000.

Now, you've said that—immediately after you've finished your two year—you're going to start working on your four year degree, and you are not going to start your family until you've secured a good job. Since the success of your career does partially depend upon how you run your private life, and you're asking for advice, I'll strongly suggest this: don't deviate from your plan. Do not start a family before you've finished college. You consider getting married a priority; I hope your partner doesn't disagree about the importance of your education, and it being put before having children. If you haven't talked about it, I hope you do.

Why the insistence? Well, as you've already been told, a two year degree is borderline bullshit. I've managed computer repair centers before, and I'd turned away people with shit like Best Buy and Dell technician on their reumes—if that was all they had, at least. I don't give a damn if you've worked with a bunch of idiots who wouldn't know a floppy drive from their asshole. In fact, a lot of computer science majors work jobs like that, and any technician with half a brain knows that computer science has fuck all to do with their field.

So, if you really want to provide for your family and not struggle through the rest of your life, do not give up on your stated ambition to get a four year degree. I have both gone to college and technical school, ultimately finishing with an MCSE, but I don't even work in the IT field anymore. Regardless, don't fuck around with this, or you will get fucked.

[SaviorSelf]

Anyone have a list/link to some of the most worthwhile certs to have? How was your experience with the tests and all that stuff?

[Julian]

Uh

By network security, do you mean things like, ACTUAL network security, like pen tests and that kind of stuff? If yes, then you are not going to learn anything applicable in a 2 year (lol), and you are better off learning yourself, and networking with people in the field.

But I assume this isn't what you mean by network security, so whatever.

[Meresgi]

As for the child thing, yeah ive talked it over and we both agree we arnt going to be having kids anytime soon until we are situated well enough to be able to afford a child and anything that comes along with it.

[Franzer]

While my story isn't the norm, i'll post it. I spent many of my early 20's fucking around and not going to school enough, but i've worked in the IT field since I was about 17 (27 now). Currently, i'm still working on my degree, and luckily my work pays for it. I'll tell you right now, certs just mean that you had enough money to take the test, because i've seen plenty of people with "oh i have this and that" that don't know a fucking thing. Most IT jobs will overlook a degree for experience or skill sets, especially in unix/linux backgrounds, or in backup environments right now, and on paper, certs sounds pretty good. The company i work for, i'm the replacement for our director of IT/IS as i'm the only one besides him who knows thoroughly our structure internally here. The issue is, I can't actually be in that position without a degree, according to HR, so that's why i'm fasttracking my degree atm. My best advice, is try and find an IT student job, because #1 you won't do shit at it, but #2, you can put it down as work experience.

[Bockage]

Figured I'd post my story here too in hopes it'll help. I've been building/repairing PC's on my own since I was in my early teens. After the economy crash in '09 I decided I would try a career change to the IT industry. I ended up choosing a local tech school that offered, among others, both a Networking degree and Network Security degree. I chose to go for a BS in Networking because when I looked online I didn't see any entry level network security jobs. Even today, I don't see any entry level network security jobs. I also got my A+ (lolz), N+, and Linux +. Also went through the Cisco Academy, offered at my school, which preps you to take the CCNA (taking the test in a few weeks). Those certs helped me get an internship at a rather big name company, but years from now when I'm senior level guy those certs will be useless to me. Found out a few others at that company had degrees from other tech schools as well. Now that the internship is over, and I'm looking for work again, I've found a few things about the IT hiring process:

• They like people who have the understanding to work in the IT industry (should be obvious).
• Previous IT experience is big.
• 4 year degrees are pretty much necessary for anything higher then entry level. Sometimes required for entry level jobs too.
• Certs help you get your foot in the door, but are generally useless once you have some industry experience.

[Meresgi]

Cool, thanks for all the info. I'm really hoping to just get an entry boring IT gig+work on the side as a computer tech for the area I live in while going for the 4yr program. If I can get into a company that pays for it, that's even better. I know a good chunk of stuff but I still need to learn a lot more with Linux/Unix as I never really dabbled with them too much other then just checking out Linux and what all was there. I just went to schedule classes for my 2yr 2nd semester today and found the college lists EVERY goddamn course as requiring a Prereq that they only offer during the fall and didn't fit in with my other classes because every single course they have for this program falls on Tues/Thur between the hours of 5:30 and 10:30. I don't know who the hell thought this program up and decided it worked out just fine, because its terrible. Heading to the college tomorrow to chew out an adviser and ask him just what the fuck is up.

[Franzer]

but I still need to learn a lot more with Linux/Unix as I never really dabbled with them too much other then just checking out Linux and what all was there.

While i'm bias because I absolutely love Arch Linux, follow the guides and do this install, and by the end, i'll promise you'll have learned more from installing and configuring arch, than you would in a class. I've had friends that wanted to learn linux and tell them to follow these steps, and come out after installing talking big words and using the command line like a baus. It may feel intimidating at first, but just stick with it.
http://www.archlinux.org/
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners'_Guide

[Darus Grey]

Figured I'd post my story here too in hopes it'll help. I've been building/repairing PC's on my own since I was in my early teens. After the economy crash in '09 I decided I would try a career change to the IT industry. I ended up choosing a local tech school that offered, among others, both a Networking degree and Network Security degree. I chose to go for a BS in Networking because when I looked online I didn't see any entry level network security jobs. Even today, I don't see any entry level network security jobs. I also got my A+ (lolz), N+, and Linux +. Also went through the Cisco Academy, offered at my school, which preps you to take the CCNA (taking the test in a few weeks). Those certs helped me get an internship at a rather big name company, but years from now when I'm senior level guy those certs will be useless to me. Found out a few others at that company had degrees from other tech schools as well. Now that the internship is over, and I'm looking for work again, I've found a few things about the IT hiring process:

• They like people who have the understanding to work in the IT industry (should be obvious).
• Previous IT experience is big.
• 4 year degrees are pretty much necessary for anything higher then entry level. Sometimes required for entry level jobs too.
• Certs help you get your foot in the door, but are generally useless once you have some industry experience.

It depends entirely on the cert.

A+, CCNA, Linux+/LPIC1/etc are entry level certs and they get you entry level jobs as resume fodder.


RHCE(and more recently, my RHCA) and VCP get me around 10 job offers a week. Highernd MS certs do the same.

I do say I gotta disagree on the "Industry Experience" thing, when I went looking for a job last year it didn't matter that I had 12 yrs of experience, for GOOD paying positions companies wanted those certs, and after I went and banged them out in a month is when I went from "lucky to get an interview" to "Offers waiting in my Inbox everyday".

Which isn't to say you're wrong about the certs you're talking about, but the tiers above them are far from worthless.

[Meresgi]

I talked to an adviser today about possibly moving into this program:

http://www.howardcc.edu/academics/pr..._engineer.html

Figure it looks better to me then both Electronics Tech and Network Security, and as someone else said, network security is kind of roped in anyways when going for a network degree.

http://www.archlinux.org/
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners'_Guide

Thanks for those links, i'll def check them out since I have so much free time now.

My one issue though is that according to the College the Electronics Tech course gets you ready for the CCNA exam, yet the Network Engineer program makes no mention of it at all, and has no Cisco courses as part of the curriculum. But the network engineer program seems to be all about Microsoft Network, which is pretty damn important as well.