Windower: The Future of Spellcast (3.0 Discussion)

[Aikar]

There are advantages to the current spellcast implementation too. Being XML based makes it trivial for other plugins and applications to use spellcast files. If it were changed to a scripting languages, things like the gear collector plugin would be unable to exist.

which would be met with exporting JSON/XML files of the JS based files for GearCollector to then read.

[Ithorien]

#2 or #3. Rules separate from gearsets sounds nice. A ground-up integration sounds nicer. There should be a much simpler way to capture the logical decision tree than XML.

Wouldn't use a GUI necessarily but I can see how it would help some needing remedial setups, sort of a way to slap your gear into canned templates.

edit: to the post above me omg i'm your sig. I remember posting that so many years ago before my break to some guy fishing up titans at level 20.

/highfive

[Soupbowl]

#2 with python

[Greatguardian]

You say that as if it's a bad thing. It's easy to learn because every term it can possibly use are documented on the website. As for Java, some people go to university to learn Java.

It's kind of like being given a sheet of hiragana, wanting to romanize a purely hiragana paragraph, and comparing it to learning japanese. Sorta.

Being a CS major myself, I actually have the opposite view. Learning the XML tags and functions for Spellcast helps you for Spellcast and that's it. You still have to go and learn basic logic and syntax for the language, it's just a language that's not useful or applicable anywhere else. Coding in Javascript won't make Spellcast any more complicated, it'll just make learning it actually useful for people.

Computers are a big deal right now. If you apply for an office job and tell your prospective boss you know how to write Spellcast XMLs, he'll just sorta stare at you (or ask you to leave because you're weirding him out). On the other hand, if you tell him you have experience working with Javascript, bonus points for you! Javascript can also be extremely handy if you ever decide to go into basic web development or web design, which pretty much everyone should be familiarizing themselves with these days. Having a good website is pretty much required for any business (small, enterprise, or personal) that wants to be successful.

Tl;dr version: Javascript won't make things harder, you'll just have to relearn how to write things. Once you have it, though, it'll be significantly more useful for you outside of FFXI and will also be significantly more powerful inside of FFXI.

[Yugl]

Being a CS major myself, I actually have the opposite view. Learning the XML tags and functions for Spellcast helps you for Spellcast and that's it. You still have to go and learn basic logic and syntax for the language, it's just a language that's not useful or applicable anywhere else. Coding in Javascript won't make Spellcast any more complicated, it'll just make learning it actually useful for people.

Computers are a big deal right now. If you apply for an office job and tell your prospective boss you know how to write Spellcast XMLs, he'll just sorta stare at you (or ask you to leave because you're weirding him out). On the other hand, if you tell him you have experience working with Javascript, bonus points for you! Javascript can also be extremely handy if you ever decide to go into basic web development or web design, which pretty much everyone should be familiarizing themselves with these days. Having a good website is pretty much required for any business (small, enterprise, or personal) that wants to be successful.

Tl;dr version: Javascript won't make things harder, you'll just have to relearn how to write things. Once you have it, though, it'll be significantly more useful for you outside of FFXI and will also be significantly more powerful inside of FFXI.

I don't have a CS major, but I anticipated that this would be the case. I've worked with spellcast for a while, so I've always had this dual "I program spellcast, but I don't program" if I tried explaining this to people (Obviously, not of the sort this post brings up). I would look forward to learning the new language, but as some have stated, this needs to release relatively soon to be beneficial.

[Aikar]

i dont know how long it would take me to implement MY ideas... but it is something that really interests me, maybe month or 2 bar distractions?

The goal is to move nearly all of the "data" SC has to a general platform, and then SC specific code will be a a module under that with utility to simplify setting up your logic to be baseline like XML files (ie: your script files code would primarily be the logic of your rules and not tons of general programming to actually read the data from the game too)

[Aikar]

oh and my personal desire is for this system to replace as much plugins as possible, and any special needs a DLL based plugin has would simply implement those features into the addon platform (so others can use it if needed) or give the ability for the module to have compiled binaries that extend the game that would still remain closed source/private, but at the same time, keeping the main modules code in javascript or so

the benefit being moving the addons code to open source, and more future proof for updates/being able to accept open source contributions to the addons etc. that way stuff doesnt have to slowly die as people leave the dev scene or grow inactive.

windowers never been against the concept of open source, its just impossible to share the plugins code w/o giving everyone the ability to write plugins and see some stuff that needs to be private, and with my ideas, itll be a seperate system (a seperate process...) so theres a degree of seperation

[feary]

I don't see what the difference is here for end user. I've personally helped and maintained XMLs of all jobs for hundreds of players over the years. I think spellcast could be better and that if the current developers find it easier to maintain /improve upon it in a different language then i am all for it.

However, everyone needs to be aware that the reason most of posts willing to jump on this isn't exactly what it seems.this wik not make it any easier for players to pickup spellcast. In the current state of spellcast. I find they're multiple level of users. Not just the idiot noob players who can't create a XML file. There are players who can make an XML but don't under spellcast and how rules relate to the game. Players whom can't understand if, else and elseif. Players who can't understand how to create/use custom variables. The majority of them will have trouble with any coding language.

In the end the only benefit will be to the developers and those few ppl like myself who have experience in programming who will have no problem picking a new language. The end users will still be in the same we are today. We are still goig to have to help/drag our kicking and screaming ls menbers and friends. Often holding their hands thru ever line.Majority will find the shit hard because learning a language is at the very least time consuming. Then they will need to learn how to actually use xml to play the game. I find the majority of players who can't comprehend spellcast don't know how to situationally gear or basic game mechanics like haste cap , latent effects, fSTR. Precast miscast and after cast. When gear effects are applied like fastcast. I can go on and on. Lol

I don't believe these issues will be solved with a revamped spellcast language. Not to mention the problems that will occur when switching to the new language from XML.

Also there has always been a solution like multiple buff active. Logically, I agree we should be able to use it in one if statement. however, I wouldn't call that a reason for a new system. Just more coding.

However, if it makes the future development of plugins and more importantly better enables our developers then I'm all for it.

P.s if any Plugin needs a language change it would be light luggage. Otherwise, auto exec can use some use morw rules variables like job.

[feary]

Gearcollector go bai bai. Nuuuuuuuuu

[Haborym]

Gearcollector go bai bai. Nuuuuuuuuu

This would be as easy as making a single xml with all your gear for a job, and loading that into GearCollector.

[feary]

This would be as easy as making a single xml with all your gear for a job, and loading that into GearCollector.

I already do this. Does the gc plugin syntax make for easy button no. I don't how we logically think. Therefore it deemed as not optimal However, You can your create own syntax, Make script with gc commands.

I find that majority of issues/complainants will stem from the user's knowledge, ability to code/ problem solve. The windower system itself takes time to learn and build your own system of play. Which most player won't do. Lol who wants spend their day or weekend of programming and learning plugin syntax for ffxi. I do but Not many. Not every one that plays has an interest In Computers or need java exp to apply for a job.

[Julian]

People would hardly be "learning a new language" to use an improved spellcast. All you need to understand is how if statements work. And use the manual/readme/whatever to learn how to use it with FF.

It would actually be sort of similar to how it is now, except that:

1. It wouldn't look like shit. (XML is really not meant to do this kind of stuff, imo)
2. It would look a lot cleaner, and hence logic would be easier to follow.
3. Since you're not limited by XML, you can use any kind of advanced constructs that you want.

The last one is really the only thing that additional programming knowledge would help with. And for the purposes of spellcast, I really doubt you would be using much outside of if statements.

A scripting language is also a lot less verbose than xml, and a LOT less intimidating to write. I could easily write XMLs for all my jobs, but I know that I'm going to need to do some advanced things that I just honestly don't want to go through the trouble of figuring out. Just look at some of the advanced XMLs some people on here have taken the time to write out, and look at how they deal with variables by using dummy spells. That just makes my head hurt. >_>

[feary]

People would hardly be "learning a new language" to use an improved spellcast. All you need to understand is how if statements work. And use the manual/readme/whatever to learn how to use it with FF.

Yes, you seem to miss the point that majority of players who have windower.

1. Don't use spellcast or any plugins that arent pre loaded. Do not have an XML.
2. Uses a user template. I.E. code someone else wrote. and we all know how well those are written.
3. Possibly made some effort to create their own but do not have full grasp of how it relates to gameplay.
4. When they make to this point they still have to learn and understand creating a full xml with
A. Sets and base set.
B. groups
C. Pre defined Rules and variables.
D. user define variables.
5. problem solving code like weather and night/day and sorc ring procs. Latents. Not just the simple TP idle and WS sets. And how to do something without copy and paste.
6. how work with other plugins like auto exec.

All this has nothing to do with spellcast optimization.

It has to do with user willingness to learn the system.

Yes, it starts with reading the manual. most who complain are those who can't comprehend spending the time.

Code is code in not going to debate the point of "how ugly code is" that is just ignorant IMO. The system works and can be improved on. If aikar nij feel that changing the language and rewriting it will open new door for spellcast and windower than go for it.

However, ppl need the realize their problems head hurting aren't going To go away. The example u jut gave me are examples of laziness. The Easier/optimalzation change that the developers are purposing isnt what it seems or what ppl have been making out to be.

All code is intimidating when you don't know how to use it. When you learn it and don't want to code that is just sad. It's not spellcasts issue it's your own.

I feel like I don't want to code something all the time. I don't blame te langague or be plugin that hs just silly.

[Julian]

I do. Why use something complicated that could take a ton of lines to write, when you could write much more compact, and simpler code?

If I could write them in ruby, I sure as fucking hell would have made my perfect spellcasts already.

[feary]

I personally don't know ruby but however I am familiar with a course or 2 in js vb vb.net and c#.

I don't think difference is great enough to justifly changing overhauling the the langague of spellcast. The Amount of code needed to complete a task is irrelevant for that matter. What matters here is will it give spellcast better/more functionality than what it already can do. I don't think there is a difference. From where the game is and he wag its played I dont think it will be game changing.

From what I'm reading, the developer will have an easier time maintaining and expanding spellcast functionality. Which is key here. Not how important it is for you avoid laziness.

[Julian]

I personally don't know ruby but however I am familiar with a course or 2 in js vb vb.net and c#.

I don't think difference is great enough to justifly changing overhauling the the langague of spellcast. The Amount of code needed to complete a task is irrelevant for that matter. What matters here is will it give spellcast better/more functionality than what it already can do. I don't think there is a difference. From where the game is and he wag its played I dont think it will be game changing.

From what I'm reading, the developer will have an easier time maintaining and expanding spellcast functionality. Which is key here. Not how important it is for you avoid laziness.

No shit? It's a benefit for them, and for all of us as well. No one is forcing Aikar or anyone to do this, they are offering, and maybe implementing this by their own free will.

[feary]

No shit? It's a benefit for them, and for all of us as well. No one is forcing Aikar or anyone to do this, they are offering, and maybe implementing this by their own free will.

I never made a negative comment of developers or that ppl were demanding it. I'm encouraging it to be done. I'm saying ppl need to fully grasp the change they are proposing. The majority of reasons they are expressing they want it to happen are based on the problems they believe will be solved. When in actually it will still be there

[Greatguardian]

I never made a negative comment of developers or that ppl were demanding it. I'm encouraging it to be done. I'm saying ppl need to fully grasp the change they are proposing. The majority of reasons they are expressing they want it to happen are based on the problems they believe will be solved. When in actually it will still be there

In this case, you're misunderstanding what most of the people posting are saying I'm sure. You're also underestimating the end-user benefits of changing to JS if Aikar is planning to do what it seems like he's planning to do. A faster, more efficient, and tidier Spellcast would be a boon for everyone.

Yes, people will still need to code a bit to make their shit work, that won't change. I don't think anyone is assuming that it will. However, if people are going to have to learn basic coding syntax either way, they may as well get the most bang out of their buck. Most people seem to understand that.

[feary]

The only reason i believe we should blindly move forward regardless of the current situation is it gave us something we didn't have. If it allowed us to play more efficiently.

I don't see a great improvement in functionality. The examples that were given from the developers of what we can expect like multiple buffactives is something we can already do. Is it as pretty and logical to have 9 lines of code oppose to 3. No.

The improvements would be less code and adding modular support. Removing plugins etc. what's being proposed will effect windower as a while system not just directly to spellcast.

However, if they were purposing changing/improving spellcast and its abilities. For example, buffactive could tell which tier of minuet song not just the single buff of minuet. Have a simple code rules for fast cast or cure casting time -. I would be with the change.

Like I said Personally I'm 100% all for it being rewritten for java etc. if I were thinking selfishly. I would like to see a better functioning system if it were possible. I know aikar has been talking about this for years. As a programmer i can relate to where he is coming from. If the creator says it should been done better than by all means redo it. If I had any issue I could eventually adapt.

However when we are talking about a full revamp. I don't see it being justified the end result putting the average windower user in a better place. It possibly why it wasnt done in the first place. Why they argue all the time about and are 80% sure it will stay where it is.

[Raelia]

I'll get behind whatever gets rid of the obnoxious and unintuitive 'advanced' syntax.

I'm a fan of YAML as long as someone puts in the stupid simple little snippet of code that converts tabs to four spaces so we don't have to explain that YAML throws errors if you use tabs instead of four spaces three times a day.