2012 Republican Presidential Candidate Race

[Gwynplaine]

I think that if there has to be a discussion about income inequality it's better off in the OWS thread. Where this thread's better for posting like news and updates on the candidacy.


But as long as it's here. I disagree with Romney on a lot of things, but he is right there. Arguments about income inequality are driven by envy and the utter economic ignorance that so many people share.

A person's conclusions about the (non)issue of "income equality" are based upon these important questions:
What is wealth?
Where does wealth come from?
How does a person get it?

Any further discussion of "income equality" should include your personal answer to those questions.

[solanis]

hey please do not compare us to beyonce and co, those two are uneducated performers who wouldn't know fiscal responsibility if it smacked them in the face with a cock. I know that lots of people get down on their luck and it's not their fault, but I ALSO know that the majority of the protestors against income equality recently are new college grads who took on massive amounts of debt to major in sociology and they are furious that they're unemployable now. I also know they care a lot about this political race because if obama loses, their free healthcare will likely be gone. I have no fucking patience for those people.

what this has to do with obama and how you guys brought the thread here, I will never know lol

[Talint]

how will romney do in the MA primary? I'm curious to see which wins out - Republicans' memory of Romney, or their hatred for Obama

In the primary? Romney will win. It's a silly liberal-red state that way, and he's the only liberal-red in the race. Assuming it goes that far.

See: John McCain's 2008 election campaign. He was a very popular senator with an independent streak a mile wide until he decided he needed to run hard right to win the nomination. Romney is doing much the same during the primary here and although he might learn the lesson of putting someone like Palin on his ticket, he's still making a lot of the same moves anyway. It's going to get worse and worse when the field narrows and he's free to make more specific policy promises to build support amongst the hard-right Tea Party and other fans of Republican intransigence in Congress. Just wait, as soon as Super Tuesday is over he'll steer right into their arms. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone in his campaign question Obama's citizenship in April.

Oh, I know why he's doing it. I'm really just disappointed... like I was with John McCain when he picked that awful woman.

[kuronosan]

I lost patience for those types of people months ago. I'm all for fiscal responsibility but I'm not all for continuing bullshit wars and continuing to prop up banks who lend themselves money at 0% interest and lend it to other people for filthy high profits.

As I said before. I took out loans and I plan on paying every cent back. I'm not hurting in the slightest. I'd love to invest for my future and build a strong, responsible foundation for my future generations to hold onto.

I still think that there are people out there, sociology failures aside, that were sold on the idea that getting any kind of education would benefit them and that these people, no matter how hard they work, will never be where some of the corporate giants who are milking every bone of the law to their advantage are currently sitting.

It's a pretty harsh fact that businesses are selling people out in the name of profit. I can't blame companies for wanting to make profit, hence the increase in outsourcing jobs and importing goods, but do you honestly believe that as jobs are cut further that people will have more money to spend?

I mostly hear retailers and businesses whining about how they aren't making money, yet they don't realize the only way people will ever be able to spend their own money if they're not lucky enough to have a job that pays >30k/year is if they borrow it. Borrowing money puts you further in debt, which increases the stranglehold on you financially.

Now, I would be very remiss if I thought that the ridiculous borrowing habits of people is the only problem - they really lack self-control. Businesses know this, and they exploit it. It's an unfortunate circle of bullshit. They prey on the stupid. Good for them. The non-stupid people are still the ones suffering if they weren't lucky enough to "hit it big".

My point with the Beyonce and Dumbshit controversy is that people like that frivolously spend money on stupid shit and inconvenience normal, every-day people who work harder than them hoping that they'll earn that kind of money throughout their entire life, and yet they act privileged and special and shit on everyone else, for what?

Answer me that. Why should any one person's existence take precedence over another's?

[Demosthenes11]

hey please do not compare us to beyonce and co, those two are uneducated performers who wouldn't know fiscal responsibility if it smacked them in the face with a cock. I know that lots of people get down on their luck and it's not their fault, but I ALSO know that the majority of the protestors against income equality recently are new college grads who took on massive amounts of debt to major in sociology and they are furious that they're unemployable now. I also know they care a lot about this political race because if obama loses, their free healthcare will likely be gone. I have no fucking patience for those people.

just because you hate the people protesting does not make their message wrong. Income inequality is at close to an alltime high. That can't be denied. Nobody can argue that's a good thing either. There are tons of numbers of people living way below poverty lines, not to mention all of the people losing their homes still to this day. It hurts me that you look at that in full picture and don't care because some hippies are the ones protesting

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

"Technology can help these kids. But only if the kids want to be helped. Yes, there is much inequality. But the opportunity is still there in this country for those that are smart enough to go for it."

Minus, the second sentence, and change the last sentence from "smart enough" to "want to educate themselves/have knowledge of how to, in order to" go for it, and I'd agree with you.

[solanis]

what exactly do you want from me? I feel for the people who were born disadvantaged and never had a chance to move up. my first job was at the nyc public library, and during my interview the woman asked me, what do you plan on doing after you graduate high school? it was the first time I ever realized that a lot of people don't even consider college, whereas I always assumed I would go because of where I was raised. my co-workers had no clue they could possibly live a life better than cleaning shelves at a library in the bronx. THOSE people I feel for.

however I don't give a fuck about the people who "everyone told me if I went to college I would be rich and I majored in something stupid and now I'm not rich! it's all your fault! I worked hard enough, where is my paycheck!" because no, they didn't work hard enough and THINK hard enough about the consequences of their actions. I have 0 pity for them.

anyway you should answer gwyn's questions bro.

[Demosthenes11]

Minus, the second sentence, and change the last sentence from "smart enough" to "want to educate themselves/have knowledge of how to, in order to" go for it, and I'd agree with you.

First, you would disagree that there is much equality? lol?

Second, the whole point of "people that are less fortunate have fewer opportunities" is that they don't have the same education level or social structure around them that others have. You know why education rates are so bad in the ghetto? It's because the culture doesn't care about school anymore. If you are born into a single parent household that is quite poor and literally every person around you doesn't give a fuck how you do in school, you are going to have some grand desire to learn and do yourself better? This has nothing to do with want or desire, it has to do with culture and these children not being given the same opportunities as others because society has turned their back on them and dismissed them as "well they just dont want it." They don't know they want it. They were never given the chance to want it.

A few kids might get lucky and make it out with a strong desire to learn, but that isn't a reason to say "well if you are smart enough / want it enough, obviously you can succeed!"

[Demosthenes11]

what exactly do you want from me? I feel for the people who were born disadvantaged and never had a chance to move up. my first job was at the nyc public library, and during my interview the woman asked me, what do you plan on doing after you graduate high school? it was the first time I ever realized that a lot of people don't even consider college, whereas I always assumed I would go because of where I was raised. my co-workers had no clue they could possibly live a life better than cleaning shelves at a library in the bronx. THOSE people I feel for.

however I don't give a fuck about the people who "everyone told me if I went to college I would be rich and I majored in something stupid and now I'm not rich! it's all your fault! I worked hard enough, where is my paycheck!" because no, they didn't work hard enough and THINK hard enough about the consequences of their actions. I have 0 pity for them.
.

well the message of the latter affects the former, but because it is the latter that is the vocal majority, fuck everyone right?

Pretend OWS doesn't exist. None of these problems are gone if OWS doesn't happen. They are all still there.

[solanis]

actually yeah it's plenty enough to say that. if you're smart enough and have enough drive and work ethic, you can become comfortable in this country guaranteed. guaranteed. no matter where you come from. the important thing for those kids is to let them see what they could become so they don't aim for mediocrity because they have no concept of what they could become.

minus the OWS spoiled fuckfaces crying about their college debt, I really do worry about the people who had something bad happen to them. needs more mentoring programs, tbh

[kuronosan]

What is wealth?

I view wealth as the total attained assets an individual has that he or society places particular value on, whether it be monetary or existential. If you are able to comfortably live within or above your means, I consider you to be wealthy. If you have attained a great deal of what I view to be valuable, I consider you to be wealthy. To me, a man able to not blow a million dollars in a minute is wealthy. Equally, a man who has a happy family and is working within his means to make it work is wealthy. The opposite, of course, would be someone who is poor; and what I consider to be poor is someone who, regardless of ability, is perpetually unable to live within their means and has no intrinsic or extrinsic value attached to their estate.

Where does wealth come from?

It's a little difficult to say. I think wealth comes from wherever it comes from in accordance with what you believe is wealth. If I think being wealthy means earning $50,000 a year and being happily married with children and not worrying about having a roof over my head, then I think my wealth comes from within. The second that is threatened by extrinisic factors such as the economy, job cuts, or life in general, I believe the wealth really comes from the almighty $$$. In this case, it comes from the combined efforts of those around you, the economy, and those in control of "the wealth" and its flow throughout society.

How does a person get it?

To each his own.Hard work and sacrifice are pretty much how you would achieve anything. To get what you want, you need to be willing to sacrifice other things you may want in order to achieve it. We all would love to get laid every minute and never have to work. If you want a healthy marriage or financial portfolio, you need to be willing to sacrifice both time and other desires in order to make it work.

I guess where I'm going with this is that I obviously believe hard work and sacrifice are the keys to achieving your dreams. You have to be able to want it.

I also believe that there are those who dream and are prepared to sacrifice but cannot, as they would be up shit creek without a paddle. There are also those who have nothing further to sacrifice and are working at twice the level of others and they still cannot make it.

Even further, there are people who are completely ignorant of sacrifice because their community has either been beaten into submission and simply doesn't give a fuck about teaching them work ethic (re: parents who are pretty much like, fuck you you'll never make anything of yourself anyway).

After you take that 60-70% out of the equation, then I will agree that the remaining 30-40% of "lazy assholes" out there are in-fact lazy entitlement-ridden brats who have no concept of hard work.

To even further prove my point, I started becoming willing to do what it took to secure my future for myself and my future family.

I have no fucking clue where to start, and I'm a rather intelligent individual. My major was in laboratory medicine, not finances.

How ignorant, then, do you think the rest of the populace is, if they don't even have a STEM degree?

[Demosthenes11]

actually yeah it's plenty enough to say that. if you're smart enough and have enough drive and work ethic, you can become comfortable in this country guaranteed. guaranteed. no matter where you come from. the important thing for those kids is to let them see what they could become so they don't aim for mediocrity because they have no concept of what they could become.

and everyone that studies minority groups or sociology in general would laugh you out of a classroom for saying that. "anyone can work hard and succeed" is irrelevant to the problem

minus the OWS spoiled fuckfaces crying about their college debt, I really do worry about the people who had something bad happen to them. needs more mentoring programs, tbh

ridiculously condescending. "I feel for you, here's someone to talk to. What? Another 1% of my money!? I don't feel for you THAT much"

[Demosthenes11]

I also believe that there are those who dream and are prepared to sacrifice but cannot, as they would be up shit creek without a paddle. There are also those who have nothing further to sacrifice and are working at twice the level of others and they still cannot make it.

and there are those that don't know they can dream

[Correction]

gwyn's questions are designed to start arguments over definitions and don't serve any purpose to the discussion. They'll gradually degenerate the thread into what school of economics your dick is currently in and it lets people stick their head in the sand about the real and growing problem of the wealth gap in the United States.

[solanis]

it's not condescending. the kids I work with don't understand that they can do better than a shitty retail job or waitressing. someone has to show them and help them, cause their parents aren't equipped to do it. that's the purpose of mentoring. or are you too busy feeling sorry for yourself to understand that :/

[Demosthenes11]

"I'm poor, work my ass off with 2 jobs, and can barely afford for my 2 children to eat and keep a roof over their head. I could use a little more help"
"no sir, you don't understand: what is wealth? *shanked*"

[Demosthenes11]

it's not condescending. the kids I work with don't understand that they can do better than a shitty retail job or waitressing. someone has to show them and help them, cause their parents aren't equipped to do it. that's the purpose of mentoring. or are you too busy feeling sorry for yourself to understand that :/

why would I feel sorry for myself

[solanis]

well, here's a thought experiment demosthenes. you know I'm rich. do you think you work as hard or harder than I do? do you think you've worked as hard or harder than I have historically?

[Demosthenes11]

well, here's a thought experiment demosthenes. you know I'm rich. do you think you work as hard or harder than I do? do you think you've worked as hard or harder than I have historically?

I don't think I work as hard as you, no. (being serious)

[solanis]

okay cool. /derail over