Legion - info and strategies

[Yugl]

If you're using up to 4PD (More for subsequent waves I assume), how are you rolling with 1 SMN?

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not. We use the stun method.

[Yugl]

Seemed to have misunderstood your post. I thought you had written the second piece as additional notes for the first strategy.

[Byrthnoth]

Naw, those are just the two different strategies. The first one requires fewer notes. After switching to the stun method I don't think I could ever go back. The freed up space let us use a 2x DD party format, which was a huge performance boost for my group.

Stun method for Mul:
Wave 1: Ironclad -> Harpy -> Mantis -> Naraka
Notes:
* Stun everything. Nothing is particularly resistant.
* Remember to stun after the jumping attack (mantis), swirly attack (Harpy), and 4-sword attack (Naraka)

Wave 2: Ironclad -> Harpy -> Mantis -> Naraka
Notes:
* Each monster probably has a 30-50% critical hit rate penalty.
* Stun the Ironclad on movement to hold it still so your melee can beat it down.
* Harpy uses a 2-hour after the Ironclad is defeated. If it's chainspell, who cares? If it's Mighty Strikes, be extra free with the Stuns so people can recover.
* Mantis has a lot of magic evasion. Make sure your SCHs have Klimaform/Thunderstorm up and consider ES Impacting him.
* Naraka goes immune to everything at 1% and sometimes casts Kaustra. Recommended to stun him on movement when you see him hanging at 1%. Otherwise he's not threatening. Banish III him and be sure to Stun everything. Might have a lower Crit rate penalty than the other Wave 2 mobs.

Wave 3+: Botulus -> Gallu
Notes:
* Stun Botulus on movement, but don't stun him instantly when he starts moving. He'll turn, give him a second, and then stun again. There's always a delay between unstunning and using the next TP move, it seems. Tomahawk it.
* Gallu's Mighty Strikes sucks donkey dong. Should have your Paladin tank through it if it goes off around pull, then stun him down while you zerg with melee. Sprinkle the stuns in as you need them, but be aware he builds resist (you'll want Klimaform + Thunderstorm). ES Impact recommended.

[Yugl]

Any reason you do Harpy after Ironclad instead of Mantis?

[Byrthnoth]

Our paladin complains about how far away she can hit from when he is kiting. But basically no. I cannot make a particularly strong argument for any specific wave 2 order.

I think in an ideal world we would do Mantis after ironclad when the harpy mighty strikes, but I am worried someone would deep and attack the wrong mob if we changed it on the fly.

[Eldelphia]

Really appreciate the information, thank you.

[Viar]

A RNG party is a fairly effective way of dealing with Elasmoth. I've heard people say he takes increased ranged damage. I'm not sure if that's actually true

I believe so, I noticed increased last stand dmg on it compare with other mobs for no reason.

[Eldelphia]

How are people dealing with Legion drops? We're thinking about getting a group together for it after our initial run. So it wouldn't be an established linkshell with an existing DKP pool.

[Byrthnoth]

I had a similar setup (random amalgam of players) and these are the rules I used initially: http://pastebin.com/4755w0mK

Currently we run with the same rules, except that I've removed the restrictions on lotting Arise/Meteor as their price has dropped and our success rates have risen. We went until approximately everyone that didn't take a break and commented one of the two scrolls got one.

[Eldelphia]

Thanks. Laughing at some of your comments but it's exactly what I was looking for

"Also, if an abjuration drops that no one has commented and you lot it for your level 5 WHM over one of our main WHMs, I will give you one mental "I hate you" point. Collect too many and I boot you too. Capiche?"

[Byrthnoth]

No problem. I've found that it works pretty well because lotting a sellable item that drops early negates your shot at R/Ex items later. The rules make it so that people aren't going to comment/lot R/Ex drops that are worth less to them than the sellable drops. Due to the high value of sellable drops, this ensures low competition for people that really want specific gear pieces.

At the same time, we typically do 3x short chambers, 1x long, and Mul every time we meet. (Unless it takes too much time on Monday. Then Castle is on at 10PM EST so I call the event over if we can't finish Mul by exactly 10). Because so many of the drops come from Mul, people that want R/Ex are hesitant to lot sellable things from the starting chambers and people that want gil more than any R/Ex get sort of a free shot at it, so there's no complaints on that end.

I say no complaints but what I actually mean is, "no complaints that I hear." As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough for me.

[Mahoro]

Eldelphia, if you are getting a static group together which will by and large be the same players week in and week out, I would recommend at least some form of point/bidding system. If people insist on a /seacom system, it might be possible to do /seacoms for the common drops and point systems for the rarest stuff.

I actually run with Byrth's group on off nights from my own LS runs using the drop rules he posted above, and it is to his credit that he has created such a successful group with well thought out and clearly delineated rules. It works very well when a group is first starting out, and for common items with a decent drop rate. It also works well for someone like myself who only wants the more unpopular mage drops. But there are ways in which it might not suit your group's needs.

I. Issue

I have seen a general trend toward /seacomming drops even in established linkshells. The problem with /seacomming is that it gives the illusion of greater access to drops, and makes people feel as if they have some sort of run-by-run control, but it can ultimately result in longer odds for those rare drops in great demand.

II. Application to Legion

When you first start out, assuming you are doing multiple chambers per night, there is a huge variety of drops in Legion and peoples' /seacoms will be varied accordingly. That WHM guy might /seacom Lenitive Head, that WAR might /seacom Duplus Grip, that melee guy might /seacom Corvine Feet, that SMN might /seacom Ngen Seraweels, etc.

Over time, however, your group will cap out on items such as abjurations, scrolls, and the extremely common drops in all 4 chambers. Assuming your group is successful, you will have abjurations, Arises, Meteors, A'as Circlets, Mystagog Slacks, Wurrukatte Boots, and Ngen Seraweels coming out of your ears. Seriously, you will be handing them out to mules and people like "that guy" who only leveled melee jobs but "hopes" to one day level SMN.

Eventually, your alliance will by and large be /seacomming the same 4-5 items: Duplus Grip, Wrathwing Nails, Striga Crown, Fulad-Zerah and maybe mats like Ormolu Ingot or Staghorn Coral. In general, melee drops are more commonly sought after, and Legion is particularly egregious for making some of the best drops rare and sellable. If you only do a couple chambers a night, or if you allow people to /seacom more than one item, the /seacoms will look even more homogenous. After that, every time something with a 3-5% drop rate drops, you will have ~6 people on average casting lots, driving down the probability of any one person getting it to 1% or, worse, a fraction of a percentage point. Assuming you recruit more than 18 people to offset random lapses in attendance, the worst scenario that could happen is someone caps out on the incredibly rare drop he wants and then dumps the group. Then you may replace that slot with someone else who then proceeds to /seacom the same thing, forcing the others to keep dealing with the same probabilities.

Incidentally, this also happens when groups try to use /seacom systems for stuff like Odin v.2. Half the group will /seacom Laeradr stuff, and the rest will /seacom Herja's Fork or Othila Sash. Or in Prov Watcher, where half the ally /seacoms Tessera Saio because the other stuff is not as good or has a higher drop rate. The odds of one person walking away with anything are worse than turning on the television and not finding a reality show.

III. Conclusion

What you want is some form of point system to deal with lot congestion. You want people to spend points according to their priorities and self-select themselves out of things in the process. You want the system to "remember" the guy who won Duplus Grip one night, spending his points and thereby forcing him to build his points up for the next "big-ticket" item. You want the system to "remember" someone who has built up points and gone without drops for a long time being able to outspend replacements you add to the group over time. You don't want the results to be "erased" each night with a different run. Otherwise, I'd argue that too much is left to chance and inequities can result over time.

[Lyltia]

The reason most Linkshells are moving toward a /seacom system is because nobody wants to fuck with point systems and the attendant work in 2013. Inequities will inevitably result, but that's the tradeoff you're making. It's not like point systems are immune to bullshit, either.

[Mahoro]

If people understand the tradeoff and don't mind, it's all cool. But once the initial rules are drafted, it just takes one person in a LS who doesn't mind taking a screenshot and ticking off names on a spreadsheet. I, and a couple others, do it in my own shell and it only takes a few minutes here and there, most of which you can find waiting on people to gear and/or reset 1-hours.

[Arthars]

all events atm in xi are "casual" anyway

shouldnt have a need on point system

if your legion grp is running smooth, IDEALLY with 18 non dualboxers, then they can use /seacom method really easily.

if 1-2 people dont show up, you can always bring in the dual boxes and still win-comfortable, altho u MAY miss a wave or 2 in mul cos of afk bodies

and this still ensure everyone got a shot at loots and not being screwed over by a few individuals

unless you guys r doing legion(mul especially) with 9+9 dualboxes, then u guys are saint

[Eldelphia]

Well my thought was to use guildwork to record all runs/drops and I needed something to work up some rules from. Even if we don't go with exactly what Byrth uses, it's a good starting point. It occurs to me that using the wishlist functionality on guildwork might work but I'll have to check it out and see what happens if people change things and when stuff is completed.

I'm actually not a fan of /seacoms in general in terms of group durability. I think that people tend to pick and choose events to show up to, drop out when they're done and generally act like arseholes. However, what you guys are all giving me are ideas about the issues with loot that Legion throws up. Chances are with the new expansion and possibly new events that Legion will be a stop gap event. I'm not trying to setup a full event shell right now, I did that for 7 years and whilst we were incredibly successful it's a lot of work. So I need to find a balance between a high admin system and freelotting anything which drops.

[Kujah2010]

Anyone seen all the screenshots popping up of all Paramount Mobs intimidating themselves? Possible glitch or a hidden feature!?

[Byrthnoth]

This supposedly started after the intimidation patch. I haven't seen it happen yet, but it's not exclusive to these guys. Apparently Morta was intimidating herself after the patch too.

[Kujah2010]

Ive only seen it happen on Paramount mobs though, not wave 1 Mul. Wondering if its possible its some kind of tweaks SE put in to be abused to kill withouth embrava/PD etc...wouldn't surprise me if it was.