Legion - info and strategies

[ronin sparthos]

I wouldn't really cite Nidhogg as an example of a monster that you need an alliance of competent players to kill. You could kill Nidhogg comfortably with a single party of good players at 75. Flailing, dying to wings, etc. would be more of a sign of gross incompetence than skill. Admittedly, it is probably harder to get a full alliance of people that won't flail Nidhogg than a single party, but I always saw large groups in DA as more of a claim tool than strategic necessity.

I think the point he's trying to make is when Nidhogg was something new he could tear the asshole open of a typical random alliance whereas a skilled group would get a few chances to mess up but overall you'd have a challenging battle that rewarded proper positioning, skill, timing and finesse.

Even with something like Vrtra back in the day you had to coordinate dealing with her, adds and the random monsters that'd spawn in the room and give you trouble. You'd always have a chance to make a few mistakes but overall the battle relied on organization and some modicum of skill.

The difference is today that battles are either a complete joke or use so many cheap TP moves that no matter how well you're doing, the battle can be fucked up by 5 count dooms, instant kills or attacks that constantly reset hate and make tanks useless. Do they really think an attack like Yama's Judgement or Tera Slash is fair? All it does is encourage mindless zerging which have less to do with skills and more to do with button mashing as fast as possible before everything goes to hell and you wipe.

ADL - zerg or get destroyed by tp spam.
Arch Diabolos' - zerg to get destroyed by charm, death or tp spam.
Voidwatch - zerg or get destroyed by a wide variety of instant death, doom or attacks that oneshot you without drinks up.

Old Einherjar tier 3s were similar, but back then I went with more like "18 competent players and 10 quasi-competent players." Bards in Hecatomb, Black Mages in NQ weskits... I can't pretend everyone was good. It was mostly people playing jobs that they had leveled because the LS required it, but it really showed in the effort they put in to gearing/playing it. Legion sounds like an event where that level of effort isn't acceptable.

The current problem with Legion isn't that people don't want a challenge but what SE has been cranking out lately boils down to things that are either not balanced properly, completely cater to zerg, zerg, zerg or have too little rewards attached to be worth the time investment. I still await being proven wrong but initial reports aren't helping.

They'll get around to fixing this content no doubt but frankly I'm rolling my eyes at the fact that everything new that gets released isn't functioning up to par, needs months before being adjusted to something reasonable and doesn't have any loot that can be universally agreed upon as awesome.

If Legion's first HNM kill had something like a Heavy Metal Pouch, 100pieces or abjurations you'd have interest building amongst the base but as it stands it just seems like alot of work for one person to get a scroll of Arise once the first groups manage to access the 'final challenge' or whatever.

Seems like the greatest challenge will be deciding how to fairly split up one drop when dozens of people participated.

[Slycer]

They've never introduced an event which they haven't tweaked at some point down the road. I'd go so far as to say that more often than not, the events (as introduced) are relatively broken and need major fixes to function properly. The only event I think they ever added that was relatively functional from the start was Limbus. Everything else has required at least one major change after its addition in order to make the event doable/enjoyable for a majority of people (I can cite at least Nyzul (both v1 and v2), Einherjar, and Salvage as significant examples). This is modus operandi for SE, and it doesn't have anything new with Tanaka. I'm not defending it, it's fucking stupid, but it is what it is.

[Churchill]

regardless of changes, the gear from legion is mostly crap so after the fun of being able to beat it is gone, you're paying 360K to maybe get a crap item

[ronin sparthos]

Nyzul was perfectly doable from the release of the event.

Group tags was really a minor tweak designed to take power from the one person recording progress but the event itself? No major tweaks needed.

[Slycer]

Group tags was really a minor tweak designed to take power from the one person recording progress but the event itself? No major tweaks needed.

You don't remember the progress resetting after completing F100? You had to climb the tower again from F1 to have another shot at head armor every time you did F100. That was a major change in my book.

[Kalasin]

For what it's worth, the Lofty Behemoth in An chamber spams spells when he has spikes up, however doesn't cast at all without them up. So spam dispel on it and it won't cast at all, making it really easy.

In case people overread it throughout the argueing. This removes Meteor and makes the Behemoth a joke.

[Mahoro]

I wish I could agree, but I would literally have to make an event LS with ~30 competent people in it in order to get 18-24 semi-regularly. Assuming I could press-gang all the good players that I know into one shell and force them to accept that half of them will be playing support jobs/mages instead of the DDs they spent the last year pimping out, I could maybe make it happen. There would have to be a major incentive for mages and bard to aggressively gear and go back to playing mages and bards. Like, level 99 glowing mythics dropping from the final chambers. Short of that, it isn't going to happen.

To be clear, I don't think that (before legion and possibly excluding the last chamber of WoE) there was any event in the game that required a full alliance of competent players. I certainly know I have killed Botulus with some scrubs leeching along, and Ig-Alima is a joke compared to him.

I think you've hit upon one of the core problems. Asking the "good players" to come on support jobs/mages is like pulling teeth sometimes. Almost all of them prefer coming on their pimped out DD, and there is generally more motivation to gear out those jobs than mage jobs. Even on forums, I see a clear tendency to declare Legion drops crap, even though I see a few really nice mage drops (admittedly, some are sidegrades like the WHM Gaiters cure boots, but then again people spam VW for sidegrade bodies). However, because the melee drops are mediocre (with the exception of a few niche pieces), there doesn't seem to be as much motivation.

In my LS, we do events clearly designed for the melee people in the shell all the time, so I am not overly concerned with balancing it out with Legion. Hell, I can schedule Arch Angra Mainyu runs for nothing more than because someone wanted Avesta Bangles (or Dynamis Jeuno for Oneiros Grip, etc). However, I recognize the event clearly needs to be tweaked because even though my LS can get to the 36 person limit if we get our social members/friends of LS to come, getting to the final wave is a herculean effort at the moment. I really think the time limit should be increased to 45 minutes.

[Churchill]

Pimped out DD's are your Ukons, Apocs, Rags, 2h Mythics, etc. I'm not sure how Vere would perform, but it would be hard to bring enough Pizza+1 and still have inventory space.

Everything else suffers for either not being incredibly powerful (Ukon) or having a +35/+40 Accuracy tag on it. I still think most of these, even the DD weak chambers, can be cleared quickly with less overall character use by buffing a set of good DDs and the rest supporting them, rest on BLM. I saw some people tried SMN burning, but the HP is too high on the mobs and BP delay really hurts that so SMN really becomes PD for chambers it would be necessary on (probably HQ Behemoth, and HQ Dvergr).

Pimped DD is not equal to 85/90 Emp and AF3+2 for this event - pimped DD is Armada Hauberk at 75 cap with a D.Ring. Pimped DD now is having 5 inventory spaces at most open on your DD job with it all being occupied by gear you use and not shit you're carrying because you're lazy. Anni/Yoichi and WF are also really good for hate control and damage - COR's can SC darkness and RNG can SC light making them easy to pair together with BLM's to accomplish things from a distance (We ran into SC problems because shit moves so much, gg losing TP still)

[Mahoro]

Yeah, I agree SMN burning wouldn't get very far due to BP delay. They would still run up against the time limit.

I agree with your supercharged melee strat. Honestly, the most ideal alliance I can see is a tank PT, two supercharged melee parties, a party of misc. ranged damage, and 2 BLM parties with Meteor + 2 refreshers. I would be very curious to see how far that setup can go in terms of waves.

[Toth]

In case people overread it throughout the argueing. This removes Meteor and makes the Behemoth a joke.

Hmmm, if the other HNMs have their own gimmicks to make them easier, this content just got more interesting.

[Midnightjade]

I think the issue with an event like this, introduced at a time like this, is the size of the remaining playerbase. Not sure I even know 18 competent players anymore, let alone 36.

The issue with the new version of Nyzul Isle is similar in that it relates to the age of the game. I can see its appeal, but I did Nyzul for a year straight back in 2007 (2008?) and have no wish to return to it. So right now it's VW (shitty drop rates), Abyssea (fun!), or nothing.

For a game this old, lowman events are the way to go. Smaller numbers, not larger.

[Gippo]

My Linkshell has been doing Legion 3-4 x a day since Tuesday, with avg. attendace at 32-36 every run. This first week has all been about testing/strategies... what works vs. what doesn't.

I have already posted strat for An chamber in this thread.
Last night we focused on Ki chamber (cerb, khim, hydra).
Hydra's tp moves make it difficult to hold, so we decided to move away from our strat of hold , hold, kill > hold , kill, > kill. and to try to utilize a more aggressive approach. Killing all 3 at once would allow us to have approx 12 minutes per mob, and with proper pt setups, not have any issues.

It became quite clear on run 1, that a combination of Khim's HP/defense saw our identical setups killing Khim before Cerb or Hydra was below 50%. That combined with Cerberus being the easiest to "hold" , we revised our strategy.

For most players, a PLD can hold cerb but might need 1 support person.
While that is happening , the main force splits to take on Hydra and Khim.
each pt setup is sch, whm, blm, DD, DD, X, where X is a cor or bard. DD is Monk, DRK, WAR, but they must be A game DD's.
at least 4 of these pts will be this type, bringing numbers to 26. Any extra PT of this makeup will target Khim to give an extra pt here to kill this faster.

Battle tactics: Assuming 4 pts, 2 PT's will then be on Khim, and 2 on Hydra. One sch from each group will embrava, allowing the 2nd set of schs to embrava for wave 2.
1 SCH and 1 WHM with bard/cor support can heal your 2 dd's , While on Khim, Khim cannot be blm stunned, for this reason, and the 50% mdt, have the 2 blms assist on Hydra, because it can be. Fulmination is nerfed. Range appears to be less than 10, Torbillion's status effect mixed with the dmg actually makes this move more of a threat. Kill time should be no more than 4 minutes for Khim with this setup. Hydra should be around 70% , both Khim PT's move to Hydra to assist. Now all 4 pts are on Hydra.
Since you will have 4 blms from the beginning on Hydra, setup a stun order of 2 blms to stun Nerve Gas. The other 2 can stun Aeroga or just nuke, but avg nukes on Hydra will be approx 900 if using Ice.
Hydra will be your "rock to break" so to speak, Just whittle it down, having your healers watch their respective 2 DD's.
Once Hydra is dead. Assist your PLD on Cerb. Gates of Hades can be stunned also, 2 blms should be enough of a stun order.

This should clear wave 1 in approx 12min. Even with the 2nd set of Embrava, we have yet to win wave 2. We simply ran out of steam. We were able to get wave 2 khim to 38%, but once you reach the point where you lose more than you gain, over time, it cant be overcome. Their HP is rediculously increased, and each group eventually falls.

We may be modifying this a small degree for tonight's runs, but we havent discussed it enough yet for me to know for sure.

[Slycer]

One SCH can Embrava everyone in both alliances, you don't need two scholars each time. SCH/RDM with Accession/Perpetuance/Penury can cast Embrava at least six times before running out of MP (Convert).

[grevenilvec75]

One SCH can Embrava everyone in both alliances, you don't need two scholars each time. SCH/RDM with Accession/Perpetuance/Penury can cast Embrava at least six times before running out of MP (Convert).

I can do 10 (locked on ??? at ADL for example. 3x pts x 3x fights. and one more for an NQDL fight.) with sublimation and convert

[Slycer]

I can do 10 (locked on ??? at ADL for example. 3x pts x 3x fights. and one more for an NQDL fight.) with sublimation and convert

Should be able to do 10 with convert alone (remember its 20% max MP cost per cast, using Penury to cancel out the Accession cost penalty), I was just saying six because that's how many parties you have in two alliances. Can you lock on the glowy thing where you get ported into Legion battlefields?

[Mahoro]

I think the issue with an event like this, introduced at a time like this, is the size of the remaining playerbase. Not sure I even know 18 competent players anymore, let alone 36.

The issue with the new version of Nyzul Isle is similar in that it relates to the age of the game. I can see its appeal, but I did Nyzul for a year straight back in 2007 (2008?) and have no wish to return to it. So right now it's VW (shitty drop rates), Abyssea (fun!), or nothing.

For a game this old, lowman events are the way to go. Smaller numbers, not larger.

I think the success of PUG Voidwatch shows that not everything needs to be lowman. The people are there, it is just a matter of mobilizing them through PUGs or LSs. Although I will be the first to admit Legion is not PUG friendly because who in their right mind would want to lot against 18 or 36 people for a single drop. DKP systems are almost required.

[Kaisha]

Should be able to do 10 with convert alone (remember its 20% max MP cost per cast, using Penury to cancel out the Accession cost penalty), I was just saying six because that's how many parties you have in two alliances. Can you lock on the glowy thing where you get ported into Legion battlefields?

Glowy thing in the battlefield itself (as an exit means) has a confirmation prompt, so it might?

[Churchill]

I do VW with enough/know enough others with appropriate jobs, relics, and gear, to fill up a Legion run. These are all good players and most defer to the correct people when establishing "what to do" to win certain fights.

What I noticed from people who setup PUG Legion is they get the other people who aren't necessarily in the above category and therefor they might have good gear, but suck, good gear, but think they're the chief. Too many chiefs in a PUG Legion is actually the biggest drawback to actually winning.

[Asymptotic]

Even on forums, I see a clear tendency to declare Legion drops crap, even though I see a few really nice mage drops (admittedly, some are sidegrades like the WHM Gaiters cure boots.)

This is a hexed armor piece, so it's crafted then the abjuration drops in VW.

[Mahoro]

Ah very nice, I'm glad some of them have been discovered. It would suck if all those drops were reserved for the 3rd waves of each chamber.