SWTOR: Random Complaint thread. F2P means P2Win

[tol]

What?

Did you even play FFXI where you have to wait 30 seconds to click on rampage or asuran fist? And shit, using your ability was probably taking 1.5 seconds anyway.

[Kaylia]

What

I've never felt more limited in an MMO than I have in TOR

He complains about "feeling limited by the animation lock", but doesn't grasp the purpose of a GCD. He also played and endured slower game that had real animation lock issue, and not just a cosmetic animation overlap.

His opinion is retarded, just like your post.

[Dantrag]

He complains about "feeling limited by the animation lock", but doesn't grasp the purpose of a GCD. He also played and endured slower game that had real animation lock issue, and not just a cosmetic animation overlap.

His opinion is retarded, just like your post.

You comparing XI to TOR is actually pretty fucking retarded. If TOR was just a cosmetic overlap that would be fine. But there is no clipping. It's not like WoW where the moves can be done in rapid succession or where you can queue up your next spell. Either you haven't played enough TOR or you're just trying to make some random ass excuse. Just because you think it is ok as is. I don't. It's one of the issues that irks me that I don't believe this game will be able to over come.

But to that effect you could actually clip in XI. I could self buff without waiting to the end of each one(I'm thinking Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry in quick succession). Game was built for PS2. You can't compare the gameplay...

[Isiolia]

XI was not a fast paced MMO. This is supposed to be. The flashy attacks and triple attack moves basically cause you to have to wait 1.5 seconds to do something else, even if it's an instant attack. Comparing XI to TOR is probably the worst comparison there is out there.

This. For one, as mentioned, you can interrupt animations in XI. Anyone who has played DNC for any length of time would know that, since they probably hit Step macros mid-animation on plenty of things and still had them fire off just fine.

Waiting on TP to build isn't quite the same. Different style of combat. I found the fast-paced style TOR is trying for interesting...in Guild Wars, since it actually does it well. Combat in TOR is terrible.

[Kaylia]

WoW where the moves can be done in rapid succession

There is a 1.5second GCD in WoW...

[Noobta]

There is a 1.5second GCD in WoW...

That's not tied to animations.

[Dantrag]

There is a 1.5second GCD in WoW...

There is also an auto attack that can be utilized in between moves, where as there is no such thing in TOR. Best example I can give is on Sin when I use my instant lightning i sit around for a full second doing nothing. Or Rail shot on my merc. It's about a .5 second animation and I do nothing for a second. To you this may not seem like an issue, but I don't like the amount of time I spend standing around doing nothing because a lot of the moves on my characters are instant. If there was auto attack in between these moves I wouldn't notice at all.

[Kaylia]

That's not tied to animations.

And why does it make a difference if the ability is tied to a long animation or not?

I spend standing around doing nothing because a lot of the moves on my characters are instant. If there was auto attack in between these moves I wouldn't notice at all.

And that's why I compared it to FFXI. The amount of downtime in that game was gigantic. Unless you were dual wielding ridill with haste, there was most likely way more than 1.5 seconds of "nothing" between every attacks.

I'm not defending SWTOR. You said it was the worst, there was worst.

[vrumpt]

There is also an auto attack that can be utilized in between moves, where as there is no such thing in TOR. Best example I can give is on Sin when I use my instant lightning i sit around for a full second doing nothing. Or Rail shot on my merc. It's about a .5 second animation and I do nothing for a second. To you this may not seem like an issue, but I don't like the amount of time I spend standing around doing nothing because a lot of the moves on my characters are instant. If there was auto attack in between these moves I wouldn't notice at all.

i fail to see this as a valid excuse to argue against lack of auto-attack. In WoW you still do nothing while you wait for the GCD to go off. Your character may get a whack in, but you physically still do nothing. The only time white damage does any kind of significant damage is at level 1, and thats the most boring part of WoW since you literally let the game play for you until you have enough resources to use your 1 ability. And this is only for melee characters. Casters in WoW function identically to every class in SWTOR, and i've heard nobody bring up complaints there. You cast a spell, you wait for it to go off, you cast it again. A button press for every action. There is zero difference between how this works between games. You're still waiting through a cast time in WoW, waiting to perform your next action. There isn't any difference.

[Kaylia]

^
Pretty much. That's why I don't understand why people are bitching about GCD and ability clipping when its entirely an issue with the animations not being as cool as they would like (something you usually stop looking at a few hours into a mmo anyway). Unless you hate the whole WoW battle system..which is also fine.

[Dantrag]

I'm pretty sure abilities don't queue up the same in TOR as they do WoW but my point still stands as far as DPS is concerned. Also, there have been plenty of times in WoW where white damage for certain classes was actually a large if not a majority of their damage.

[Lucavi]

^
Pretty much. That's why I don't understand why people are bitching about GCD and ability clipping when its entirely an issue with the animations not being as cool as they would like (something you usually stop looking at a few hours into a mmo anyway). Unless you hate the whole WoW battle system..which is also fine.

Melee having to wait for animations to finish in PVP in a game that's not centered around dynamic (IE: free movement-based) combat is a problem. This doesn't happen in WoW with melee, and yet it happens here. Not being able to cancel a move with another before the animation completes with a melee in PVP is a problem, especially if you're trying to completely rip off of WoW like SW does.

The reason it can work for mages is because mages attack from far away, so its not as big of an issue, and can even be argued as being a balancing tool. When you slap that onto a non-ranged class, you're going to have nothing but problems. Based on the amount of forum posts on this very issue, I'd say its a problem.

And seriously, Kaylia, bringing a shitty console game with no functional PVP to speak of into a discussion on modern MMOs? Seriously? What the hell were you expecting people to say?

[Cleverness]

i fail to see this as a valid excuse to argue against lack of auto-attack. In WoW you still do nothing while you wait for the GCD to go off. Your character may get a whack in, but you physically still do nothing. The only time white damage does any kind of significant damage is at level 1, and thats the most boring part of WoW since you literally let the game play for you until you have enough resources to use your 1 ability. And this is only for melee characters. Casters in WoW function identically to every class in SWTOR, and i've heard nobody bring up complaints there. You cast a spell, you wait for it to go off, you cast it again. A button press for every action. There is zero difference between how this works between games. You're still waiting through a cast time in WoW, waiting to perform your next action. There isn't any difference.

I haven't played at all since Cataclysm came out, but unless they DRASTICALLY changed it, this is blatantly false. Melee damage was always a good portion of damage. Even in PvP it's useful and a good portion. Tell a Rogue or Warrior that melee damage wasn't a major source of their damage and they'd laugh in your face. Frankly having no auto attack IS a big deal, especially when you're bound by an unavoidable GCD. Even with WoW's GCD, as mentioned, you aren't restricted by executing another move right after due to a long attack animation. This is a terrible design flaw.

And why does it make a difference if the ability is tied to a long animation or not?



And that's why I compared it to FFXI. The amount of downtime in that game was gigantic. Unless you were dual wielding ridill with haste, there was most likely way more than 1.5 seconds of "nothing" between every attacks.

I'm not defending SWTOR. You said it was the worst, there was worst.

This is pretty hilarious. A game released mere days from 2012 versus a game released a long time ago. The recent game being developed for years. Oh, and the earlier game can clip animations for ability spamming, while the new one can't. Great point you're making by trying to say it's not as bad as 11, which wouldn't surprise me if it rivals it for subs now since majority of people quit after the free month. Frankly, it matters if the ability is tied to a long animation since it is apparently RESTRICTING the players actions because of the games terrible coding. It defeats the purpose of even having a GCD if you can't actually execute moves on proper timing.

[vrumpt]

I haven't played at all since Cataclysm came out, but unless they DRASTICALLY changed it, this is blatantly false. Melee damage was always a good portion of damage. Even in PvP it's useful and a good portion. Tell a Rogue or Warrior that melee damage wasn't a major source of their damage and they'd laugh in your face. Frankly having no auto attack IS a big deal, especially when you're bound by an unavoidable GCD. Even with WoW's GCD, as mentioned, you aren't restricted by executing another move right after due to a long attack animation. This is a terrible design flaw.

Not having auto-attack is an easy thing to adjust for though. You just make all your button abilities a little stronger to counter the lack of white damage going out. I'm still a fan of this kind of play, it turns it into slightly more of an action game and am excited that most if not all future MMOs seem to be moving in this direction, such as TERA and GW2, or even to a lesser degree SWTOR and WoW's Monk.

Melee animations that run long and can't be canceled, unlike a caster's spells, I'll agree with being a problem. Especially if the damage output isn't tuned to the length the animation runs.

[Ohemgee]

MMOs will develop as core gameplay evolves. The fact that a guild can clear all of the hardest content in the game within a month is absolutely retarded. It happened to Rift and it happened to SWTOR. Using the same gameplay elements (WoW engine and fight mechanics) really stifles MMO progress. Whats the point in developing a game if people already know how to play it?

I'm starting to feel like Mr. Plinkett in the Star Wars reviews because these games are just pandering to the lowest common denominator. Even though TERA has a terrible quest scheme, it at least tries to do something different (vrumpt, ignore the pedophilia and just look at the game at its core). Even though the "action" part is a bit meh, its a lot more interactive than the WoW model in games and I actually feel engaged in the game. Games like TERA and GW2 actually make me want to work for what I earn rather than sit on my ass and doing the same -basic- mechanics thats existed for years.

Although games like WoW and FFXI have existed for almost 10 years, they're still fun and enjoyable because they excelled at what they did and added an insane amount of content that feels rewarding to revisit again. The one thing that I never felt from any other MMO was the sense of being rewarded for the actions I did in any raid instance. It all felt kind of expected. And don't give me that bullshit about FFXI having retarded drop rates and mechanics because it was the only MMO I wanted to play because I knew one day I would get something out of it.

[Kaylia]

And seriously, Kaylia, bringing a shitty console game with no functional PVP to speak of into a discussion on modern MMOs? Seriously? What the hell were you expecting people to say?

I've never felt more limited in an MMO

Why does it matter if FFXI is old or not? It was a shitty console game like you said, but there is no reason why it should be excluded from his statement. If he indeed thing that FFXI was better with animation lock, long cooldown, then he got some explaining to do.

Secondly, MMO players in general don't know what the fuck they want and have nonsensical expectation. It's been like that for 10 year and it ain't gonna change. I brought it up here because FFXI always generate a lot of crying, and I enjoy seeing people try to defend that pile of shit.


And lastly, people making an argument that auto-attack is meaningful are retarded. The only possible argument is that it's fun to watch, because it doesn't change the game mechanics otherwise.

[Grey Jorildyn]

It sucks hardcore that TOR didn't bring anything to the table. Last year was a generally stifling mmo year and this year looks better on paper at least...

When you look at other game genres there's familiarity in their design. All platformers are similar, all FPS are similar, and RPGs have similar elements. But mmos are required to innovate to keep the bucks rolling in. It's really no surprise bioware and trion went the safe route for their first forays into the mmo world when you consider that.

Of course there's the long-term outlook developers seem to be forgetting lately. If TOR didn't deliver that staying power to the masses then maybe gw2 or tera will. Maybe neither will and we'll have to wait a few more years until Blizzard busts out a new type of mmo model that will be copypasta'd for the ten years that follow it

Also auto-attack is overrated.

[Inactive]

i fail to see this as a valid excuse to argue against lack of auto-attack. In WoW you still do nothing while you wait for the GCD to go off. Your character may get a whack in, but you physically still do nothing. The only time white damage does any kind of significant damage is at level 1, and thats the most boring part of WoW since you literally let the game play for you until you have enough resources to use your 1 ability. And this is only for melee characters. Casters in WoW function identically to every class in SWTOR, and i've heard nobody bring up complaints there. You cast a spell, you wait for it to go off, you cast it again. A button press for every action. There is zero difference between how this works between games. You're still waiting through a cast time in WoW, waiting to perform your next action. There isn't any difference.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2204&e=2444

#1 Rogue DPS in the world on a fight that heavily favors melee, auto-attack is his 2nd highest contributor to his damage at 23.3%. Tell me again how white damage means nothing.

Having no auto-attack does nothing but detract from globals that could possibly be used to make the gameplay a little more interesting imo (from a PvP standpoint, who cares about PvE unless maybe you're the tank). You're basically CCing yourself every time you aren't using your globals offensively because you've got a retarded ability animation, coupled with not swinging for a minimum of 1.5 secs. Have to use 3 defensive abilities in a row? That's going to be about 5secs+ of being completely useless offensively. How they expect anyone to PvP seriously with this is beyond me.

Also the difference between WoW casters and SWOTR is you can interrupt your cast before it goes off and the global won't be triggered. Start casting a frostbolt and a mob aggros you, cancel the frostbolt and nova before you get hit. In SWOTR you're locked into the action as soon as you hit the button.

[Kaylia]

#1 Rogue DPS in the world on a fight that heavily favors melee, auto-attack is his 2nd highest contributor to his damage at 23.3%. Tell me again how white damage means nothing.

You could remove auto-attack, increase other abilities, and rogues would be ranked exactly where they are on World or log while pressing the same fucking buttons.

No one manages auto-attack manually, or takes decision around it. It's just a passive number that is added on top of everything else. So yes, vrumpt is right, auto-attack isn't doing jack shit.

[Lucavi]

Why does it matter if FFXI is old or not? It was a shitty console game like you said, but there is no reason why it should be excluded from his statement. If he indeed thing that FFXI was better with animation lock, long cooldown, then he got some explaining to do.

Secondly, MMO players in general don't know what the fuck they want and have nonsensical expectation. It's been like that for 10 year and it ain't gonna change. I brought it up here because FFXI always generate a lot of crying, and I enjoy seeing people try to defend that pile of shit.


And lastly, people making an argument that auto-attack is meaningful are retarded. The only possible argument is that it's fun to watch, because it doesn't change the game mechanics otherwise.

You're not even comparing apples and oranges at this point. You're comparing castor oil and desserts, essentially, and honestly, it doesn't matter one way or another. SW is the newest major MMO out there and it has problems that MMO's that came out in 2006 had under lock and key. The game has systems so flawed that you've got... ugh, God, I don't even know what you are in this situation - a fanboy or an idiot - defending them by referencing a shallow attempt at ripping EQ off, covering it in JRPG elements and colors, and designing it straight for console. You seriously don't know how weak your argument is at this point; the goddamn game was designed a decade ago, and you cannot see the problem with one designed a decade later having one of the same core problems with its combat?

As another poster said, TERA's quest system is absolute shit. It's boring, its grindy, there is no true branching of quest-lines and options; you're quite literally following a single pathway to glory unless you purposefully cease questing and run off on your own to play with pigs and trees, but fucking hell, at least the combat is responsive and involves a little thought to it outside of a rotation. The fact that a 300 million dollar game couldn't innovate their combat system in any meaningful way, and then couldn't even be assed to make sure that the combat system features function over flash - well, its not surprising at all, considering the common denominator they're pandering to. Trekkies and SW junkies have never been the brightest bunch; I remember reading how many trekkiers were praising STO like it was the hottest shit on the market, about 3 weeks after launch (which was also about 2 weeks before it flopped).

@Kaylia: As for your above comment, you're wrong again. Auto attack wouldn't mean shit in WoW if the current engine remained the same, and mages were taken out of the game, yes (and truthfully, even Mages have Ice Block, which will instantly cancel whatever they were doing, regardless of the GCD or any "animation locks"). However, as we can all plainly see, SW is not WoW. SW has taken the mage platform and applied it to every melee, whereas in WoW, that Combat Rogue has the freedom to override any lengthy attack he sees fit to, should he need to. Not so in SW, where you're stuck until the animation completes. In WoW, that rogue would probably have been one-shot by the boss during a stupid lengthy ability that he couldn't cancel until the animation finished if he pulled massive threat from doing so much damage. That is nothing like WoW's system.

White damage isn't the issue here: melees being subjected to the same penalties as a ranged-attacking, magic-flinging, spell-generating class is the core issue, and until you stop attempting to deflect the blame to a weak argument like white damage (which anyone with some semblance of common sense can easily see through), you're not going to be taken seriously.