"I Am Not A Second Class Citizen"

[BaneTheBrawler]

So... what you're saying is.. God is Schrodinger's Cat, perpetually locked in the bunker.

[Greatguardian]

I don’t understand how you managed to arrive at this conclusion based on my post. I clearly distinguished between the formal Logic you’re addressing and what I claim to be the subject at issue. I do not disagree with your characterization of Logic, further, Kaylia and Jeryhn previously expanded upon it. I simply pointed out that it was not really the subject.

You’re certainly entitled to your face palm, but you’re not helping the problem by using the term interchangeably with a related term (which is really what the speaker you’re responding to means - at least this is my argument anyway) particularly when you demand stringent accuracy.

And that is exactly the substance of Drex’s post, though he used an improper term.

Fair enough. It's not a battle anyone is ever going to win, though. People aren't stupid, but they are stubborn. They're perfectly capable of deriving logical conclusions on their own. The ones who came to the conclusion that God cannot exist did so a long time ago (see: any BG poster who was raised in a religious home but is now Atheist, there are plenty). The ones who still believe in God did so because they were able to logically rectify the discrepancies in their logic by adding or subtracting certain premises (eg, "God works in ways that humans can't understand").

Once you have people working with catch-all premises like that, it's impossible to "prove" them wrong. This thread should have died on page 3 or 4 until Milkster came back with more info on the OP, really. I was more annoyed that it lasted this long.

[Ashmada]

So... what you're saying is.. God is Schrodinger's Cat, perpetually locked in the bunker.

No, they're arguing over semantics and generalisations that both are guilty of.


I want to go back to something you said, Bane: you said you were a christian because you were amazed at the universe/nature and couldn't imagine it appearing spontaneously (paraphrasing because laziness to go check the exact quote).
A few questions arise, then:
1. Why the christian god? If it's amazement at the world that convinces you of a creator, why be a christian and not a deist or an animist or a pantheist or a muslim or a jew or a hindu or...?
Just curious, here.

2. Don't you see a problem in that logic? It's a variant of the cosmological argument (first cause argument) for the existence of god; as usual it's debunked by pointing out a simple thing: it doesn't answer anything. A creator that spontaneously appears is at least as hard to imagine as a universe that spontaneously does.


That's the thing that (negatively) surprised me most on this site: it seems weak theists are just as absent as strong atheists.
A shame, since faith is supposed to be believing despite contrary evidence, not misjudging the evidence to be in favor of the theistic case.

[BaneTheBrawler]

1: I don't really think of them as different gods, even the Hindu horde of deities. I figure they're all either the same entity, or different aspects of the same entity. So to be honest, I'm a Christian because that's what my family is. The Moravian flavor of Christianity fits my overall philosophy pretty well, and my family has deep roots in the community, so I see no reason to switch to a different religion. In my mind, I'd still be worshiping the same God anyway.

2: Well sure, but I'm not really looking to God for an answer. I don't look to God for much of anything, really. I just believe he exists and is working to the benefit of humanity. I don't believe we should rely on him, though. He's like a parent. There if you need them, but you can't always go running to them when you hit a snag, or you won't mature as a person.

[Ashmada]

Tbh, never heard of Moravians. What's the difference with catholicism/protestantism? Or is it one of the lesser-known protestant churches?

[BaneTheBrawler]

Lesser known Protestant. It actually predates Lutherans by about a hundred years, but broke off for very similar reasons. Mass should be in a language the people understand, etc. We often do inter-faith stuff with the local Lutheran, and even Catholic, churches, and it's pretty common to have Lutheran ministers preaching in Moravian congregations.

There's a LOT of difference between Moravian and Catholic, though. As a start: We regard faith as a personal relationship between you and God, therefore there is no need for someone else to hear your confessions; Tell God yourself. We don't have a hierarchy for spiritual guidance, like the Pope. We don't have many rules, and there aren't really any "IF X THEN Y" punishments, either. Do something douchey enough, we might kick you out... but it's case-by-case. We're a pretty flexible church, really. We don't even have an official motto, but the closest thing is "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love." which I've always felt to be a pretty decent creed to live by, so I try to.

[mightyg]

The real point here is whether there is a God or not, it's ridiculous to claim you know the truth of the matter, much less what god/gods will is. Humans are too fallible, lack the ability to comprehend great amounts of information, much less discover that information in the amount you'd need to really grasp our entire reality. The whole "I'm a Christian because that's how I was raised." bs drives me fucking bonkers. It's the whole "Well other people do it so it must be right" mentality.

[Chun Liroy]

why does this shit never end.

[SamanosukeShiva]

not even sure whats this about now

[BaneTheBrawler]

The real point here is whether there is a God or not, it's ridiculous to claim you know the truth of the matter, much less what god/gods will is. Humans are too fallible, lack the ability to comprehend great amounts of information, much less discover that information in the amount you'd need to really grasp our entire reality. The whole "I'm a Christian because that's how I was raised." bs drives me fucking bonkers. It's the whole "Well other people do it so it must be right" mentality.

I feel like this is aimed at me, even though you clearly haven't read my posts.

[bechyni]

why does this shit never end.

Who fucking knows... was going to say this is getting ridiculous but..it's been that way since page 2

[Kuya]

Thread about gay rights

Straight guys have philosophical debate about religion

[Matricide]

In the last 2 years I've made the transition from Christian to Deist to Agnostic Theist to Atheist.

The things religious people (and the things I used to say) are just so baffling to me. How can people believe this nonsense? How can any educated believer sit there and not question their religion to the point of eventual dismissal? It pains me that I'm living in an age that still has to accept religion and all the stupid shit that accompanies it, not to mention how embarrassing it is.

Oh well.

[Kuya]

Ey, how about them rights for gay people, eh?

[bechyni]

Let's go get married

[Milkster]

I see how it is betch...
But yes back to the OP, gay rights are pretty dope and should become a reality.

[Kuya]

I also think rights for gay people are pretty tubular, and it is actually nice to see that at least in some political sphere, some form of left wing liberalism is actually seeing some progress.

[Yugl]

Gay people should have the right to suffer like hetero couples.

[Kuya]

By the way, i never checked, but is this "I am not a second class citizen" thing gonna be some sort of public campaign on tv?

[bechyni]

I see how it is betch...
But yes back to the OP, gay rights are pretty dope and should become a reality.

I obviously meant that towards you