"I Am Not A Second Class Citizen"

[Kuya]

Once upon a time, this was a thread about the lgbt community.

[Alleya]

All lgbt discussion degenerates to religion, because religiously motivated hate is basically the only obstacle to lgbt rights.

[ronin sparthos]

Technically, yes. If you set out to change minds you will fail. I don't try to change minds, that is useless. The thing to do is to raise consciousness. It's the same thing the feminist movement did, and it's worked extremely well. The point is to expose people to other ideas and, like you say, make them a victim of their own cognitive dissonance. Engaging someone one-on-one is very unlikely to work unless they are already doubters who just can't articulate what they feel until you come along and give it a voice. Those are the people I've gotten to change their minds. Otherwise, it's simply a matter of getting the ideas out into the culture. They seep in over time. Even blatant, unrepentant misogynists realize at this point that what they are doing is counter to a cultural force because of the consciousness-raising efforts of feminism. It's important to me that we do the same thing with rational free thinking, and not give religion a pass just because it's religion.

This.

The more discussions had on this topic, the more likely moderate believers will warm up to the idea of rational thinking and of people who identify themselves as atheist or agnostic. You aren't going to win over the hardline evangelicals but all you have to do is repel them whenever they attempt to hijack government and create rules that favor their religious belief. In time, people will become accepting of people who think differently than them and the religious belief systems will have no other choice but to adapt to the changing social environment. It's pretty important to distinguish that many people who identify as theist do so for very fragile reasons and partly because everyone else is doing it. Biblical literacy in this country is pathetic and many people do not have the courage to stand up and declare they do not believe.

There is also a reason that most church services don't quote pro-slavery, misogynistic or genocidal scripture at Sunday service. Even the anti-gay rhetoric has been scaled back due to the growing social pressure to back down on it. The Bible Belt is reacting the way they are because even they can realize on some level that the wind is falling out of their sails and eventually concessions will have to be made.

The main problem with the Agnostic/Atheist community is the bad PR heaped upon it by the church for the better part of centuries and the only way to counter that PR is to show people through action that the heretics aren't so bad afterall.

[Kuya]

All lgbt discussion degenerates to religion, because religiously motivated hate is basically the only obstacle to lgbt rights.

Incorrect. The religious right is politically motivated around two specific issues: reproductive rights, and gender/sexual orientation rights. What is relevant for the lgbt community is religion in its capacity to organize and execute political agenda. What is relevant for us is a political question of strategy and how to best achieve our goals. What straight atheist men seem to care about is religion as a philosophical question, because some seem to think of religious as ontological evil.

We do not care about that.

We're fighting for our rights and our lives, so we're engaged in a political battle, so questions about whether a particular religion is true or immoral are meaningless to us. Not just because of that, some of us in the lgbt community also understand that at the base of all opposition to the lgbt community is a hegemonic understanding of gender, and that hegemonic gender can and does exist independent of religious institutions. So we understand that religion is not the only obstacle to our rights (at the ideological level).

But at the same time, i also understand that most people in this forum are straight, so it should not come as a surprise that lgbt threads will conform to what most interests the straight majority in the forum. It's merely an issue of there not being enough politically minded lgbt people in this forum to sustain any kind of high quality debate, and in fact, there are at least two gay people in this forum who regularly join in with the straight guys on some religion bashing. The only thing i wanted to do with this post, was just make it clear to the people having the current discussion that gay, lesbian, bisexuals, and transsexual people do not see this issue the same way that straight atheist men do. Obvious once said, but only obvious once someone says it.

[Siatdiat]

Biblical literacy in this country is pathetic.

I'd go one step further and say literacy in this country is pathetic.

[ronin sparthos]

I'd go one step further and say literacy in this country is pathetic.

And I'd agree to some extent but within the bounds of the great faith debate many people who identify as a follower of the monotheisms simply do not know what's in the text because they've never bothered to read it. When you've been spoon-fed only the good parts at church it's pretty easy to be caught with your pants down when someone disagrees with your religious view and has scripture backing their assertions. Some will react violently and others will be so taken aback that they might go read and arrive at their own conclusions on the validity of the text.

The relationship many people have with theology is tenuous at best and often boils down to some level of Pascal's Wager from personal experience. These are the moderates most likely willing to accept opposing views of the world and coexist with their fellow human beings.

[Demosthenes11]

This is mainly how I feel. Only problem is, most religions instruct their followers to do precisely that. Even if they didn't, outgroups, group think, cliques, and tribalism are inherent in human nature. I'm more interested in trying to persuade people to transcend those things than to try to make do in a world where we let it run rampant out of undue tolerance.

so much this.

If you truly believe the shit in the bible and that jesus is the only way to salvation, it's not unnatural to try and tell everyone you know about it. It's just that the initial premise is ridiculous

[BaneTheBrawler]

That's one reason I like my church, as I said earlier in the thread. We're allowed to disagree on anything but the most basic principles of Christianity itself. And even then, interpretation of those principles is flexible... and it's not like they kick you out if you disagree with the core stuff, it's just, well, you kinda kick yourself out by definition. Anyway, I really do recommend reading the whole thread, it's been pretty interesting.

No, you're just conveniently ignoring the rest of my post—and failing to respond to any part—wherein I dismantle your principle that religious people's prejudicial acts shouldn't be protested because "that's equally bad."

The bolded part [reason for hatred] is the only part I'm talking about. The rest is irrelevant to the equation, and therefore a red herring.



The assertion that some wrongs are worse than others because one side has power is the exact same justification used by some pretty awful people.

Edit: Also, it would be a straw-man argument... if I were disputing any of the horrible things religion has caused. But I'm not. Never have.

What part of your post wasn't covered by that? Also, I've never said that religion should be free of criticism. Quite the opposite. What I've been saying is that hatred is still hatred regardless of who has power or who it's directed against. Just because one side has committed atrocities using hatred as a justification doesn't make it okay to use hatred as a justification against them. Their atrocities are justification enough, you only sully your own hands by resorting to the exact same tools they use.

[Yugl]

@Yugl:

Cool, I know what premises are. I took intro to philosophy too.

So you are proposing that abstract concepts like morality can't be subjected to logic or derived from reasonable thought?

They can be subjected to logic, but the method by which they become premises, because they are normative values, cannot be based on anything real unless that which it is based on is a moral itself. Moreover, there is no way of crossing from fact to normative values (morals) without a bridging normative value (and that defeats the purpose of needing a bridge).

[Greatguardian]

That's one reason I like my church, as I said earlier in the thread. We're allowed to disagree on anything but the most basic principles of Christianity itself. And even then, interpretation of those principles is flexible... and it's not like they kick you out if you disagree with the core stuff, it's just, well, you kinda kick yourself out by definition. Anyway, I really do recommend reading the whole thread, it's been pretty interesting.

That's one reason I like being a secular humanist, as I said earlier in the thread. We're allowed to disagree on anything but the most basic principles of Humanism itself. And even then, interpretation of those principles is flexible... and it's not like they kick you out if you disagree with the core stuff, it's just, well, you kinda kick yourself out by definition.

The big difference? Being a secular humanist comes with all the positive traits of humanity that religion tries to co-opt and take credit for, without the arbitrary bigotry, defined organizational structure, cult identity, history of wars and aggression, suppression of dissonant thought, or belief in Santa Claus.

You aren't going to get anywhere telling people that there are "good sides" to religion, when the only real difference between religion and what we consider common sense is all the ugly, stupid shit that comes with it.

But go ahead and spend 20 pages calling people hypocrites. In case you hadn't noticed, hypocrisy is always going to be rampant when you refer to things as black or white. Simplify the issue enough and everyone's a hypocrite. But this isn't a simple issue, and you're wasting my time bumping this thread with absolutely nothing of interest or relevance to the discussion at hand.

[BaneTheBrawler]

The discussion at hand being....? This thread hasn't been on-topic since page 1.

Again, you really should read the whole thread. All of your points have been covered already. In fact, this thread has looped around on itself a few times now. I think it's run its course.

[Greatguardian]

The discussion at hand being....? This thread hasn't been on-topic since page 1.

Again, you really should read the whole thread. All of your points have been covered already. In fact, this thread has looped around on itself a few times now. I think it's run its course.

No shit. That's why I'm politely telling you to shut the fuck up so that I don't have to keep checking this thread looking for new posts on the original topic when the only thing going on is the same inane circlejerk you've had going since page 5.

[BaneTheBrawler]

No idea what the current topic is, but there's a live play of "8", about prop 8 on youtube right now involving a lot of famous faces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlUG8...A&feature=plcp

yeah, thanks, I caught that at the end. Didn't realize it would be up for future viewing for some reason, here's for anyone else:

His face is weird but if you can get past that, great videos.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ns-documentary

They're slightly out of order, but the oldest should be at the bottom. Let's see how long this stays the topic, since it's apparently my fault alone that the thread is off topic.

[Siatdiat]

They're slightly out of order, but the oldest should be at the bottom. Let's see how long this stays the topic, since it's apparently my fault alone that the thread is off topic.

I'll accept my share of the blame.

[Milkster]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0...yuzlo1_500.jpg

[Mazmaz]

Hah I totally went and watched that interview.

[Moosey]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0...yuzlo1_500.jpg

Early childhood experiences, often due to lack of male attention(daddy issues) are commonly what makes people gay, there are biological influences, but no one is inherently gay. I don't think it's as much a choice, rather a disorder. inb4shitstorm.

[Yuri-G]

edit: all I'm going to say is, if I'm a disorder, I'm one hell of a fucking awesome disorder. I'd rather be whatever fucked-up thing I am than be the person calling someone else fucked-up.

[Milkster]

If that's not the worst attempt at trolling...

[Greatguardian]

All of 3 fucking posts after Bane finally shuts the fuck up and lets us move on with this thread.

Get The Fuck Out.