"I Am Not A Second Class Citizen"

[archibaldcrane]

I just want to know who Joseph's father is.

[bechyni]

"For the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exod. 34:14)

Jealousy is a sin: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious ... jealousy" (Gal. 5:19-20)


Nobody has seen God: "No one has ever seen God ..." (John 1:18 )
Abram saw God: "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless." (Gen. 17:1)

Jacob saw God: "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen. 32:30)

The leaders of Israel saw God: "But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank." (Exod. 24:11)

[drwaffles]

Do you not understand that picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are literal and which are figurative allows you infinite wiggle-room in the face of dissent? It's the ultimate cop-out. You can't claim that the Bible is infallible and then when someone presents you with irrefutable evidence that something is factually, historically or morally fallacious turn around and go "oh, well that part clearly isn't intended to be taken literally, even though I don't know exactly how it's supposed to be read". It's ludicrous.

[bechyni]

Fucking book of contradictions


God of Jesus: "God is love." (1 John 4:16)
God of Moses: "Kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man" (Num. 31:17)
God of Jesus: "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me." (Mark 9:37)
God of Moses: "Put to death men and women, children and infants" (1 Sam. 15:2-3)
God of Jesus: "Love does no harm to its neighbor" (Rom. 13:10)
God of Moses: "He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded." (Josh. 10:40)
God of Jesus: "[The devil] was a murderer from the beginning." (John 8:44)
God of Moses: "Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children" (Ezek. 9:6)
God of Jesus: "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8)
God of Moses: "Like a lion I will devour them." (Hosea 13:8)
God of Jesus: "Anyone who does not love his brother [is of the devil]." (1 John 3:10)
God of Moses: "Go back and forth killing your brother and friend and neighbor" (Exod. 32:27)
God of Jesus: "[The devil] is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44)
God of Moses: "Put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours." (1 Kings 22:23)
God of Jesus: "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy." (John 10:10)
God of Moses: "Pursue, kill and completely destroy them." (Jer. 50:21)
God of Jesus: "He who does what is sinful is of the devil" (1 John 3:8)
God of Moses: "Do not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deut. 20:16)
God of Jesus: "God so loved the world.." (John 3:16)
God of Moses: "I will wipe humankind ..from the face of the Earth." (Gen. 6:7)
God of Jesus: "Love your enemies" (Luke 6:27-28)
God of Moses: "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them." (Num. 25:16-17)
God of Jesus: "For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" (James 1:13)
God of Moses: "[He] tempted Abraham" (Gen. 22:1)

[Moosey]

You're either trolling or an immense moron, so this will be my only reply to you.

1- I already explained why a gay identity exists and why who you are attracted to is so important to gay identity. If you do not understand how oppression of gay people played into forming their identity, then i don't care to inform you on that point further.

You still make it seem like that is the only identity they should have. I have stated before(maybe?) that I don't support any sort of gay bashing or oppression, but neither do I think they should have any sort of special privilege.

2- Gay people may not go around saying 'Look at gay don, bisexual stacey or transgendered pat', but straight people certainly do say "Look at that faggot!" Or "Look at that dyke!" Or "Look at that freak!". But i guess we both know what you want to focus on here.

Not all straight people do that, not in an intentionally mean way anyway. I challenge you to find someone who doesn't, at all, identify someone based on some superficial, outward characteristic that stands out to them. It's just different sides of the same coin.

3- I already told you that people do define themselves by their sexuality, gay people do, and i already explained why. I don't think gay people need your paternalistic whining about how gay sex is wrong or about how they shouldn't identify as gay. They'll do what they want to, whether you like it or not.

You say above you don't want people to pick you out for being gay, but now you're saying that you actually DO want that. Which is it?

4- No one said anything about defining other people by their sexuality, what i said was people defining themselves. If you misunderstood, that's your problem. If anything, straight people really like to define everyone else though.

You're being the bigot you so claim to despise. Different sides of the same coin. Mud-slinging and name-calling won't get you what you want. If you really care that much about your cause, try acting with some respect. You might be surprised to find that people might have an easier time listening to you.

5- Straight guys deny themselves porn? News to me. But you know what most straight people do not deny themselves? Sex with people they like. Doesn't matter that you waited until you got married. You're still getting what you want, since i'm pretty sure most straight people are not eunuchs, as you seem to want gay people to be.

I didn't say I want gay people castrated at all. It's about denying something that the God of this world doesn't want you to do. He sacrificed everything for you, yes, even you, Kuya, even though you don't acknowledge him or care about him. You don't have to believe in Him, that's your choice. That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

6- A theist calling me close-minded. Funny.

I call 'em like I sees 'em. How exactly does my belief in a higher being make me closed-minded?

[Moosey]

I mean, because if the bible is the infallible word of god, god seems to be pretty confused about trivial matters, like:
among many other things.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

One last thing before I go. Jacob is the Patriarch of the Jews, he's the father of the nation of Israel, Joseph is a direct descendant of him. Read Matthew 1. It's a long read

[drwaffles]

You still make it seem like that is the only identity they should have. I have stated before(maybe?) that I don't support any sort of gay bashing or oppression, but neither do I think they should have any sort of special privilege.

Where exactly did he say they should have a special privilege? And just because you're not screaming "God hates fags" from the rooftops or trying to have all gay people locked up doesn't mean that your perpetuation of this idea that gay sex is wicked and should be condemned isn't harmful. Your attitude is what fuels the type of gay-bashing you claim to be against.

[Melena]

All the pick and chooseing in this thread reminded me of this.

[Correction]

I wonder what Moosey thinks about the documentary's basic point about the gay community's de facto standing as second class citizenry.

Or did he just come into the thread to talk about the bible.

[bechyni]

the latter

[Correction]

I don't support any sort of gay bashing or oppression

It's about denying something that the God of this world doesn't want you to do.

These two statements are fundamentally incompatible. You might want to think about that for a second.

[Blarg]

I do believe Noah's Arc though.

Worldwide flood or just huge flood over part of the world?

[drwaffles]

Think he's probably done, which is clearly our fault for being so unintelligent in our discussion.

[bechyni]

we're all going to hell we can discuss it later

[Kuya]

I think some day i'm going to make a thread so atheists and agnostics can discuss whether the destruction of religions like christianity should be a goal for non-theists and how should we go about accomplishing such a sinister act.

[Correction]

Going to hell is a small price to pay for not having to put up with the cognitive dissonance of living in a technologically advanced society and still thinking the magical skyfather made it all happen in seven days six thousand years ago.

[Correction]

I think some day i'm going to make a thread so atheists and agnostics can discuss whether the destruction of religions like christianity should be a goal for non-theists and how should we go about accomplishing such a sinister act.

ahahaha a 'theists vs atheists' thread will be such a shark tank that I expect the few non-evangelical christians will stay away from it and it will become ban-bait for any born-again with a quick temper.

[drwaffles]

I think some day i'm going to make a thread so atheists and agnostics can discuss whether the destruction of religions like christianity should be a goal for non-theists and how should we go about accomplishing such a sinister act.

That'd be interesting, because on the one hand it's difficult to justify telling someone they shouldn't believe something when they're exposed to and practice only the benign and positive aspects of it, but on the other hand religious belief in general delays humankind's collective rational contemplation of important questions.

But fuck this, I have an essay on Schopenhauer due in tomorrow that I haven't started. Life is just desire followed by fulfilment followed by tenfold renewed desire and it's all shit and we're going to die.

So go watch a sunset.

[Kuya]

ahahaha a 'theists vs atheists' thread will be such a shark tank that I expect the few non-evangelical christians will stay away from it and it will become ban-bait for any born-again with a quick temper.

Oh no, it's an atheist vs. atheist thread. You see, the consensus is that religion sucks and we have to fuck with it somehow, but the disagreement is whether that fucking with should come in the form of total annihilation or not, and how best can we carry about said mayhem.

[ronin sparthos]

I should have explained what I meant by that more thouroughly. The majority of the bible is to be taken literally. The Old Testament is, for the most part, a literal history of the people of Israel. Jews. The laws and regulations were almost solely for them, to keep them a unique and separate people from the rest of the world. You hear about the Ten Commandments being mentioned so much because thats the part that should be a given to everyone.

Paul says this on it: "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."" -Galatians 5:14

The Bible says otherwise.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Love thy neighbor? Is that before or after you buy and sell them?

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)