E.P.A. Fines For Not Using Unavailable Biofuel

[Azull]

Public Transport, no matter how good or convenient it is, is never as good or convenient as a car. I had one of the easiest bus routes to and from work for about 6 years. Once i got a car though i could never look back.

[Ragnus]

It's true that the bus might stop every 15 minutes but it takes about 3x as long to get anywhere by bus as it does to drive. Unfortunately this is true of any public transport system. Personally it's one of those things where our society is so centered around everyone having a car I've had jobs ask me how I'd be getting to work during interviews.

[Talint]

I love public transit to death.

I have to own a car now that I live in Orlando, since there is zero public transit there, and it fucking blows.

[archibaldcrane]

Public Transport, no matter how good or convenient it is, is never as good or convenient as a car.

Spoken like someone who has never lived in New York City.

[RKenshin]

Public Transport, no matter how good or convenient it is, is never as good or convenient as a car. I had one of the easiest bus routes to and from work for about 6 years. Once i got a car though i could never look back.

I don't know about you, but a potential extra $1.5k/year in gas savings is pretty convenient for me.

[Correction]

I don't know about you, but a potential extra $1.5k/year in gas savings is pretty convenient for me.

That much? I estimate my monthly gasoline consumption at $160/month. A monthly bus/rail pass in LA costs $84. Taking public transit for 12 months nets $912 for the year.

The real savings is in auto maintenance, but this assumes you don't even have a car since you'd still need to drive your car once in a while to keep the tires from breaking down, which can eat away at those $900.

[archibaldcrane]

Well, auto insurance also can easily cost a grand a year, likely more for men in los angeles.

[Drex]

Spoken like someone who has never lived in New York City.

Or Chicago. Even ignoring the money, driving anywhere is a nightmare compared to the El. Then there's parking, traffic, gas, maintenance, insurance, suicidal pedestrians and cabbies...

[notorious bum]

Taking the bus is a no-brainer if you are serious about saving dough and if your public transit doesn't blow balls like Tampa or Hoebunk, South Dakota.

[RKenshin]

That much? I estimate my monthly gasoline consumption at $160/month. A monthly bus/rail pass in LA costs $84. Taking public transit for 12 months nets $912 for the year.

The real savings is in auto maintenance, but this assumes you don't even have a car since you'd still need to drive your car once in a while to keep the tires from breaking down, which can eat away at those $900.

Yeah, and in fact it ends up pretty lopsided if I include maintenance/depreciation. I of course would still be driving the car otherwise, but that won't come near the affect of adding another 30k miles/year on a new car.

Prov to Boston, 60miles one-way, with an average gas price of $3.40 (2011's average for my area), and an average MPG of 29.41 (my last year av MPG) comes out to $3,616.56 total gas from commuting for the year.

If I add in an extremely low estimated depreciation per mile of $0.10 (for my 2011 car I'd be adding 31,825 miles/year to), that tacks on another $3,128.57 for a total $6745.13 to commute for one year.

And that's without including parking (which can easily be another $500 min). $7,245.13/year total if I include that.

On the flip side, commuter rail has a range of $149-$235/month depending on location and options, for a potential max of $2,820/year. Most options end up taking practically the same amount of time as driving well.

Even if I correct for the 2-10 miles I'd need to drive to the rail/bus, that only reduces the difference in gas by at most $602.79 ($521.42 with depreciation, $1,124.19 total). But I'd likely chose the option 2 miles from my house.

Thankfully though, I don't have to do this commute (anymore).

And of course, if I did, I'd likely not be using a brand new car to do it... but then again, buying an older car to avoid such high depreciation/mile is just another expense that would put the scales in favor of public transportation (and likely it would have higher chance of maintenance costs, more money on insurance, and lower MPG).

And this sample commute isn't all that uncommon by any stretch either; lots of Prov-Boston commuters.

[Correction]

Well, auto insurance also can easily cost a grand a year, likely more for men in los angeles.

True enough.

[Jaybar]

I'm assuming the people that drive to work also live >5mi away from work? The big picture is to bring people and work back together - the reverse of what we've been doing for the last six decades. Economical sustainability has already been discussed in the last few posts. Walking to work (if possible) or even to bus/train stops nets you savings in healthcare since you'll be much healthier than sitting in a car for 30-120min* a day and breathing in some of those wonderful aromas from the traffic around you. I'm glad that I was proven right - we are way too dependent on the car. It's like heroin.

*Assuming you live >10mi from work (i.e. suburbs) and you take congested highways. If you have no idea what I'm talking about please tell me where you live so I can move there.

[Restrat]

The average American household spends ~$8,000 a year on transportation of all kinds, with only ~$500 of that goes toward public transportation

http://www.bls.gov/cex/

[hey]

I'm assuming the people that drive to work also live >5mi away from work? The big picture is to bring people and work back together - the reverse of what we've been doing for the last six decades. Economical sustainability has already been discussed in the last few posts. Walking to work (if possible) or even to bus/train stops nets you savings in healthcare since you'll be much healthier than sitting in a car for 30-120min* a day and breathing in some of those wonderful aromas from the traffic around you. I'm glad that I was proven right - we are way too dependent on the car. It's like heroin.

*Assuming you live >10mi from work (i.e. suburbs) and you take congested highways. If you have no idea what I'm talking about please tell me where you live so I can move there.

I'd imagine commuting 50 miles is a lot more practical than moving for many people. And limiting yourself only to jobs you can walk/bike to is incredibly stupid.

[Ragnus]

You can probably write off your gas as a work expense if you need to travel that far.

[Salodin]

You can probably write off your gas as a work expense if you need to travel that far.

This. People should already be factoring in travel costs when they take into consideration a job and it's compensation.

Truth be told, while public transportation saves people money in the long run, it's not practical for a lot of activities or communities. What happens when that family of 4 wants to go on vacation? Still gonna need a car. Want to buy a lot of groceries? Still gonna need that car. Want to go do anything on a whim and not take forever to get there*? Still gonna need that car.

Our dependence on cars sucks, but that's cause they're so damn convenient. I don't care as much about the dependence on cars, id rather focus go to making more efficient cars vs larger public transportation. At least until we get into a better zone of efficiency with motor vehicles (more mpg, less break down, etc).

*for short distances its not so bad, but once you start having to transfer between buses/trains, especially when you have to take 3+, the time saved via car starts to show, plus the obvious convenience factor.

For large cities it makes sense (when there's a grocery store every 2 blocks) but for the rest of the country ehhhh...we would all see better improvement from different ventures.

[Jaybar]

I'd imagine commuting 50 miles is a lot more practical than moving for many people. And limiting yourself only to jobs you can walk/bike to is incredibly stupid.

You assume that all jobs and all cities are like New York. You don't need to limit where you work but where you live. I know it's a hard concept to understand but it's what people have been doing for hundreds of years. The huge issue we need to overcome is the myth that cities/urban communities are derelict societies filled with homeless people and smog. Hence, the exodus to the suburbs - 20mi away. You can thank the Industrial Age for that (see: Coalbrookdale).

And yes, I'm sure that moving 50 mi is not convenient for most people. Why the hell they are commuting by car 50mi is another issue all together.

[Jaybar]

This. People should already be factoring in travel costs when they take into consideration a job and it's compensation.

Truth be told, while public transportation saves people money in the long run, it's not practical for a lot of activities or communities. What happens when that family of 4 wants to go on vacation? Still gonna need a car. Want to buy a lot of groceries? Still gonna need that car. Want to go do anything on a whim and not take forever to get there*? Still gonna need that car.

Our dependence on cars sucks, but that's cause they're so damn convenient. I don't care as much about the dependence on cars, id rather focus go to making more efficient cars vs larger public transportation. At least until we get into a better zone of efficiency with motor vehicles (more mpg, less break down, etc).

*for short distances its not so bad, but once you start having to transfer between buses/trains, especially when you have to take 3+, the time saved via car starts to show, plus the obvious convenience factor.

For large cities it makes sense (when there's a grocery store every 2 blocks) but for the rest of the country ehhhh...we would all see better improvement from different ventures.

The only reason cars are so damn convenient is because everything is so damn far away. It's the biggest problem of the post-modern age right now, and most planners and designers are trying to resolve the mistakes of the Modernists. You have to drive 5 miles to get your damn groceries for Christ's sake. It used to be that you only needed to walk about 4 blocks to the nearest grocery/convenient store. Most of your daily needs were within walking distance or by some other form of mass transit (the mostly-extinct light rail systems, or buses). There should not be a reason to have to take three different buses to get to the nearest grocery store, but most of us don't live in that kind of community anymore.

I don't disagree with finding more efficient cars but to disregard or set aside mass transit is a turn in the wrong direction, in fact regressive. The problem with the rest of the country is that the smaller urban communities have grown thin due to sprawling and use separation (typical suburbs are separated from office parks and retail malls - requiring a car to reach). You only need to look at early colonial cities like Charleston, Savannah, Beacon Hill, and others to see that's what worked, so why aren't we doing this still?

edit: in response to your first rhetorical questions - yes, cars are a good mode of transportation when you want freedom, but you shouldn't need it for doing daily tasks.

[hey]

You assume that all jobs and all cities are like New York. You don't need to limit where you work but where you live. I know it's a hard concept to understand but it's what people have been doing for hundreds of years. The huge issue we need to overcome is the myth that cities/urban communities are derelict societies filled with homeless people and smog. Hence, the exodus to the suburbs - 20mi away. You can thank the Industrial Age for that (see: Coalbrookdale).

So everyone should just live in cities?

And yes, I'm sure that moving 50 mi is not convenient for most people. Why the hell they are commuting by car 50mi is another issue all together.

Maybe because it's the only job they can get? Maybe because they can make 2x more money in a nearby city than they can anywhere closer. There's plenty of reasons why commuting 50 miles makes sense for some people.

[Restrat]

3/4 of people already do.